specifically the trouble I have is getting beginners from the "I understand the syntax and can modify examples" stage to the "I can model problems as programs and apply my knowledge of the language to build these programs" stage. the first stage is pretty easy and most tutorials for beginners are oriented toward that kind of literacy... the second is harder to achieve and harder to teach, and it seems like most people only reach that stage with self-directed practice

@aparrish I think second is actually pretty much orthogonal to the first, and don't derive from it at all. Learning to break up and model problems abstractly can be learned with not programming at all. And perhaps it should? I learned in parallel, but recalling it, the classes in college where almost always independent. I learned basic programming and languages in some (like intro to programming) and modeling in others (like db, software engineering, algorithm analysis)

@tonnydourado that's a really good point! unfortunately the two tasks get conflated in curricula all the time. :/