Mastodawn

EFEL 5d ago

@daringfireball
I’m still a great fan of the *concept* of the European Union.
But at this point I‘m wondering who are these policies for? I get the *idea* of the DMA; in practice, I don‘t see *any* European AI provider or phone maker benefiting from the DMA; rather, the EC policies would only benefit *other* US or Chinese tech companies with horrible track records like Meta, Grok, OpenAI etc.
Has any of these DMA decisions actually made my life as a European citizen better? No.

https://mastodon.nu/@dmitriid/116759753732976582

@efel @daringfireball

dmitriid (@[email protected])

@[email protected] Apple: denies its users features and services. Apple: denies its users the possibility to change or use competing features and services if Apple doesn't want to provide them, or if those services are better Gruber: the corporate supranational overlords are benign benefactors of humanity, and it is the EU who is to blame.

Mastodon.nu

@dmitriid @daringfireball Apple doesn’t deny its users in the EU features and services; they don’t offer an AI service where Musk’s Grok or Zuckerberg’s Meta have access to *all* of a user’s data. The EC wants to *force* them to *change* the existing service that way.

@efel @daringfireball

Nope. Apple literally denies its users features and services.

What EU says is that if users want to use Grok, Gemini, ChatGPT or Claude instead of Apple's shitty offerings, they should be able to. EU doesn't force Apple to give any of the other companies any of the data. EU says: it's the *user*'s decision to use the device that the *user* owns in any way that the *user* wants. Not the supranational corporation.

@dmitriid @daringfireball
Apple on-device AI offering works only if given access to all personal data. That is the product.
The EU wants Apple to *change* this product to give *other US or Chinese* companies with a horrible track record access to all such data.
What is the benefit for me as a *EU* citizen? I *want* to have the choice to use it *and* exclude the Groks of this world.
And yes, let the EC pick their fights with Meta and Grok.

@efel @daringfireball

Nope. Apple can still provide the same product with privacy, PCC etc. nothing needs to be changed on Siri's side.

What EU says is: if the *user* wants to use a *different* AI assistant, it's the *user's* choice, and Apple can't say no to the *user*.

Dr. Juande Santander-Vela 4d ago

@efel @daringfireball @dmitriid do you realize that the implicit assumption is that Apple will do the user no wrong, but anyone else will… but this is the same Apple that has kowtowed to the current US administration.

I might still be on board with the Apple that said no to the FBI in the San Bernardino case to create a special iOS with a back door. Not with this one. And after seeing how things can change, not with any future one.

@juandesant @dmitriid @daringfireball
It‘s not an assumption but experience and track record. Apple is far from perfect but they at least *try* to implement a privacy minded system. Meta, Google, Anthropic, Musk, Tencent don’t.
And there’s no mandate for the EC in any law, directive, or regulation to ensure access of *US / Chinese* companies to the EU.

@efel @juandesant @daringfireball

You are under the illusion that if you repeat the same bullshit many times it somehow becomes less of a bullshit.

No one is demanding Apple give access to anyone. EU is demanding that if *the user* wants to use a different AI assistant than Siri, *the user* has the right to do so.

It's *the user's* choice whether to run Apple's increasingly shitty apps or chose alternatives. And no, it's not just AI.

Valter Hemmi

@dmitriid @efel @juandesant @daringfireball Apple don’t think the average user is informed enough to understand the security implications of allowing a 3rd party this kind of access. Hence, no Siri AI for the EU.

"Our corporate overlord knows what's best" is quite the brain-dead take.

I've asked before, and you were incapable of answering this: so you think that Apple should be able to kick out or remove any app or service just because they created a competing one, no matter how shitty?

Also, it's funny how you finally admit that it's *Apple* who's depriving you of choice but you still blame the EU because "corporate daddy knows best"

@dmitriid @efel @juandesant @daringfireball It’s getting tiresome, but let’s try one more time: If we create laws that, for whatever reasons, makes companies limit their business here, we have ourselves to blame if we don’t like the outcome.

Law: give users choice and stop hindering competition

Apple: no, I'd rather deprive users of any choice for literally no reason but greed and inability to compete on merit alone

Idiots: the laws are stupid, and limiting the business. Corporate daddy knows best.

Note also how idiots never ever think that users should have any choice (or voice) beyond what corporate overlords tell them.

In every discussion users never enter conversation except in "Apple thinks users are incapable of making choices, so Apple is always right"

@dmitriid you are really bringing the discussion down to an embarrassing level by implying that people you don’t agree with are idiots.

I don’t agree with you, but I respect your opinion. Shape up.

I'm bringing it to your level. Since you literally keep repeating the same thing: "Apple knows best, Aplle knows best, I admit that it's Apple and Apple alone who denies me features, but I will keep blaming the law because Apple is the only one who knows what's best for me".

Not once did you engage with the substance of the discussion, not to mention the numerous times you just decided to go in different directions and non-sequiturs

@nstrm m

You literally go from "other companies should build good products and compete" to "these companies are not entitled to anything on Apple's platforms" in a heartbeat.

You go from "if EU demanded Japan-like access to chat apps, it would be fine" to "EU is bad, the law is limiting business" in a heartbeat.

You go from "if your app doesn't break dev guidelines it's fine" to "Apple can deny anything at all" in a heartbeat.

No coherent viewpoints beyond Apple corporate propaganda

@dmitriid You don’t seem to understand what I’m saying, or maybe you don’t want to. I don’t agree with everyting Apple does, but here I can understand their point of view.

But again, it doesnt matter what I think. What matters are the business realities that regulation creates. And when it comes to the DMA I don’t like the outcome.

This isn't about AI. This is about Apple in particular, duopolies, competition and user choice in general.

It's not just Siri AI that Apple (*Apple*, not DMA, not the EU, *Apple*) withholds just because they don't want to compete on merit, and want to prevent others from competing with them.

Apple literally says that when faced with the demand to give users more choice they will deprive users of any choice: https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2025/09/the-digital-markets-acts-impacts-on-eu-users/

The Digital Markets Act’s impacts on EU users

Apple explains how the Digital Markets Act is forcing the company to make some concerning changes to how it designs and delivers Apple products to its users in Europe.

Apple Newsroom

Siri AI is just the latest in a long chain of things Apple has done to advantage themselves at the expense of any and all potential competition.

Pretending that this is only about Siri, or that this somehow prevents Apple from doing things only reveals how little thought the person saying this paid to the discussion.

Let's forget Siri AI for a second. Let's look at a different example

@nstrm In 2012 Apple made their Maps the default maps+navigation app on iOS. In 2012, and for several years after that Apple Maps sucked ass even in the US. And it took them many years to become usable in most of the world.

And yet, in 2014 they already had 70% maps traffic compared to closest competitor, Google Maps.

Not because they were good, they sucked. But because they were the unchangeable default, with no other points of integration in the platform

DMA came into force in 2022. Apple fought it tooth and nail until they finally relented on *some* positions.

In 2025, *13 years after they made their shitty app the default* they finally allowed changing default maps+navigation app, and inly in the EU.

The damage had already been done. Apps mostly integrate with Apple Maps and maybe with Google Maps, and Apple's own apps always use Apple Maps regardless of what the user wants.

How did this benefit the user?

How did this benefit the market?

How many potential services died because they were squeezed out by both Google and Apple?

This only benefited Apple.

And it's not only maps. There've been better assistants than Siri for *years*. And yet iPhone users were stuck with a rapidly degrading piece of crap

How did this benefit anyone?

So now Apple is late to the game again, *and* denying its users choice. How does this benefit anyone? How is this the fault if anyone but Apple?

And the list is quite long: anything from as simple as ePubs to hardware integrations like smartwatches.

Apple deliverately cripples competing products and services on its platforms to advantage its own, no matter how bad (or good) they are. Never on merit.

And yet, you keep saying that "Apple is good, and should do whatever it wants, it knows best"

Make it make sense. Apple, and Apple alone denies you features and access, and you even admit it, but then immediately say "oh no, it's good actually, it's the laws that promote competition and user choice that are bad, not the supranational corp who's entire modus operandi is to restrict competition and user choice".

7/7

@dmitriid So to summarize, on the plus side:
• Give us the option to choose Maps app

On the minus side:
• No Siri AI
• No iPhone Screen mirroring
• No Live Activites on Mac
• Any future delayed features and producs

No, the DMA is not worth it imo.

And then you wonder why I call some people idiots.

Adieu.

@dmitriid @nstrm yes, please adieu, for the love of god

@dmitriid @efel @juandesant @daringfireball why would I think that?