Mastodawn

Tooting this publicly, since the thread was unlisted:

Re: #Wikipedia and #JimmyWales,

Jimmy Wales is an #Objectivist (follower of the philosophy of #AynRand), and doesn't believe in #altruism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Wales#Personal_philosophy

He has rejected the notion that his role in promoting Wikipedia is altruistic, which he defines as "sacrificing your own values for others", and he states that the idea that "participating in a benevolent effort to share information is somehow destroying your own values makes no sense to me".

That alone doesn't make him a bad person, but union-busting Wikipedia certainly does, and is in character for Randian folk. :P~

I'm not very familiar with Objectivism, but I imagine that it positions itself as a positive individualist philosophy. That somehow by pursuing our own good, we pursue the good of others, too, or something.

Yeah, right. 🤨

Jimmy Wales - Wikipedia

@rl_dane is altruism a thing? It always looks like someone trying to buy fame or distract from the horrible things they did to get rich

Amin, minor deity of the legume realm 6d ago

@kabel42 @rl_dane

Altruism is totally a thing, but in its pure form it's usually done by people who are humble and don't need to tell everyone about all the amazing generosity they have. XD

Amin, minor deity of the legume realm 6d ago

@kabel42 @rl_dane

For example, this instance and my search engine and other projects are all hosted using money that's been generously gifted by people where who aren't expecting any recognition/reward for it.

@amin @rl_dane but we get, you are more likely to keep doing this, in exchange

Amin, minor deity of the legume realm 6d ago

@kabel42 @rl_dane

True, of course, but I don't think that makes it less altruistic unless that's the only reason they're donating.

Altruism is the unselfish concern for others' well-being. Polymaths at least would still probably be around if I were paying out of my own pocket for it, which I did at first; donations are therefore people helping my well-being by saving me money and giving me more options.

Amin, minor deity of the legume realm 6d ago

@kabel42 @rl_dane

And, of course, donations do make things better, but they make them better for everyone here. It's a public good, so to speak; people who don't donate still get the benefits (and that's the way it should be).

@amin @rl_dane but it's still encouraging something we think is good, I probably wouldn't donate for a trip to go seal clubbing even if that would relax you

@amin @rl_dane not sure you can fulfill the, no benefit to you part

@amin @rl_dane generally making the world a better place is a benefit to you

Amin, minor deity of the legume realm 6d ago

@kabel42 @rl_dane

It can benefit you; that just isn't why you're altruistic, or at least not the primary reason.

Amin, minor deity of the legume realm 6d ago

@kabel42 @rl_dane

Well, sure. That's why I disagree with whoever this guy is; altruism doesn't mean giving up your values. But it does mean that you're doing it primarily out of desire for others' well-being, not your own.

It seems that altruism is very old because there are archeological findings of confirming that pre-Homo sapiens people were caring about their ill fellows. They had no profit of doing that, it was a burden, especially in such unpleasant environment.

Of course milionaries or bilionaries who brags about their charity do that only for their own good feelings or to liquidate taxable money which one way or another will return to them. I think that many, if not most people, assess this as pathetic. On the flip side there is a good reason that people who donate blood, marrow or organs never knows who will receive their donation - this way they are unable to demand anything in return, especially that donation allows receiver to survive.

Anyhow, I think that altruism is a thing, it all depends on donator's morality.

If not altruism per se, "charity," for certain.

(Using the old definition of charity: love, benevolence, good-will)

@rl_dane prioritising being a decent human being over getting the most for your money?

Radical concept, I know. XD

> I'm not very familiar with Objectivism, but I imagine that it positions itself as a positive individualist philosophy. That somehow by pursuing our own good, we pursue the good of others, too, or something.

As a guy who read the primary source — an Ayn Rands book about objectivism, I can confirm that. As I remember from it, the primary difference between altruism and rational egoism is in accents (if distillate the whole book):

In case of altruism: some man helps someone who is in illness because he __wants to help__.

In case of rational egoism: some man helps someone who is in illness because __he wants__ to help.

So the main motivation in the first case is the urge to help others. And in the second case the urge to feel e.g. good by helping the others.

As a guy who live in the culture where the people forcefeeded with altrustic dogmas since childhood and then raise even without personal borders or understanding what they, as a human being, want — I completely understand why Ayn Rand, born in Russian Empire and evacuted from USSR — came to these ideas

I guess I understand the difference, but it just sounds, I dunno, kinda petty and petulant??

I hope I don't offend you, but among immigrants in the U.S., immigrants from Russia have a reputation for kind of going hog-wild and turning into real capitalist pigs. I don't know how accurate that is, and of course stereotypes kinda suck, but it would somewhat be explained with the repression you're talking about and the extreme reaction to it.

The thing is, I don't really think either extremes are GOOD.

> I guess I understand the difference, but it just sounds, I dunno, kinda petty and petulant??

Maybe, but not for a human who born and live in the culture, described in my previous toot. After understanding the difference it feels like "Whoa! I'm allowed to want something for __myself__ and don't be forced to share it with anyone!? "

> I hope I don't offend you

No problem, don't worry — this possibility already taken by "my" government

> among immigrants in the U.S., immigrants from Russia have a reputation for kind of going hog-wild and turning into real capitalist pigs.

I already heard something like this from some immigrants in the US. Like "if you are able — don't work in firms made by Russian immigrants from Soviet Union — you'll have a bad, slave-like working conditions, and they'll try to fine you for everything, and don't pay money at all".

Why is this happens I think I know — immigrants from Soviet Union had zero knowledge about how real capitalism works, only communist propaganda. So when they arrive to USA and start to make business — they definitely will replay the propaganda tropes about "evil, greedy capitalist".

"Modern" immigrants from Russia come from a country where the capitalism was never built — for now we have have just a cosplay of the same soviet propaganda, without free market and reputation mechanisms — all big firms and corporations are controlled by the government, directly or via friends and relatives of officials. So, these immigrants also will replay what they saw in the motherland.

People from "my" country, who want to live calmly, usually emigrated to Europe. And people, who want to "earn all money in the world", tend to emigrate in the USA.

> The thing is, I don't really think either extremes are GOOD.

Completely agreed🤝

Yeah, it seems like both the USA and Russia are experiencing the "worst of both worlds" when it comes to economic systems.

We're playing out the endgame of the lie of Reganism, and dang if it isn't devastating. :(

Vladimir 5d ago

@rl_dane @evgandr

> immigrants from Russia have a reputation for kind of going hog-wild and turning into real capitalist pigs

Well, in fact we are. I personally don’t find Ayn Rand’s propaganda rag all that bad, and count it among the most important books of my life, even though it is poor literature.

@contaminase @rl_dane

> and count it among the most important books of my life

Same. The Ayn Rand's book "Atlas Shrugged" gave me the necessary optics to live inside the current situation — where the incompetent politics, greedy for attention and power, are destroying the beautiful creations of human mind, like Internet. And where to create something you need first to fill tons of papers and pay fucking big taxes, and get a licences and be involved in politics, so instead of creation you could just go and fuck yourself .

> in fact we are

Well, it depends from definition of "hog-wild real capitalist pigs" I imagined some cartoonish characters from Nikolay Nosov's "Dunno on the Moon".

But possibly, from the perspective of usual citizen of some european country, we are all "real capitalists" with our urge to earn a lot of money:

- to buy cars and motorcycles to feel free in terms of transportation and fullfill the needs from our childhood in poverty (no one, who not used the public transport in USSR and Russia, will not understand how it is cool — to have a car to commute inside city and freely ride e.g. 300+ km from Saint-Petersburg to Kazan without dealing with other noisy (I mean really noisy, like listening the dumb TV shows on the full volume on the phone) and stinky (I mean really stinky, e.g. transporting the manure in the inter-city buses) passengers;

- to have access to the good paid doctors without: "oh you are women! Then born a baby and you will be cured. Oh you are men! What do you want, it is an age problem", etc;

- to have own house with a FENCE around it which is obviously better than dealing with crazy neighbors in a communal apartment, where the half of them usually are alcoholics, or narcomans, or gopniks (I lived near 5 years in communal apartment and met narcomans and gopniks, one time they even attacked me and I got few teeths broken and a severe concussion, so fuck this shit).

- to have tons of money to protect yourself from any crazy things from authorities. Laws going crazy: pack suitcase -> go to airport -> live in another country, since you have money to apply to visa with working permit and to rent a flat for the first time in the new country

- etc…

Vladimir 4d ago

@evgandr @rl_dane nah, you are trying to make Russian/ex-Soviet immigrants stand out as special. But all economical migrants are the same and to move and settle follows a particular mindset. Now sum this to the lack of generational wealth, the main source of prosperity and stability for locals, and you get an extra stimulus to be active, vote right, двигать тазом, рычать.

USSR collapsed 35 years ago, btw.

@contaminase @rl_dane Yes, but I could be only a Russian immigrant, so I'm writing only from this perspective and don't know the reasons and thoughts of immigrants from other countries.

> USSR collapsed 35 years ago, btw.

Yes, but problems from that era still exists🤷‍♂️

@evgandr @contaminase

Question:

Did things get better under Yeltsin?

I was in high school when the USSR collapsed.
We were all so hopeful for Russia and surrounding countries to prosper peacefully after that.
(High school naïveté, I'm sure ;)

@rl_dane Obviously not, it is Russia, dude😁

From my PoV: my family didn't have enough money, but at least we have food and flat, and my family were able to prepare me to school (buy an uniform, schoolbooks, notebooks, etc), so I can't complain — I heard some stories from another people about one Snickers/Mars bought as a holiday desert and divided into pieces so everyone could taste some.

There were also rise of banditism and over criminal activities, so you should to be careful when entering the entrance because some criminal or narco will try to rob you to gain some money. And of course didn't open the door to everyone, since this may be a burglars trying to enter the flat.

From global PoV: democracy in Russia ended at 1993 after the Russian parlament was shot from tanks by Yeltsin. The "super-president "Constitution"" with all "necessary" amendments, like "Human rights are guaranteed … until it doesn't mess with state needs", was accepted in these times.

At least some KGB craziness was dismantled, e.g. it was illegal to own printer/photocopier, only a some organization could own them and should register these devices in KGB first🙄.

Since transition from socialism to capitalism was made by morons — a lot of people were robbed by greedy hogs, because a guy who know nothing about bank system/marketing/insurance/financial pyramids/monetary system/other things could be easily robbed by almost anyone.

@evgandr @contaminase

Holy crap, somehow I wasn't aware of the 1993 coup.

So Yeltsin was a prototype of Putin after all. 😨

@evgandr @contaminase

Wow. Yeah, I get that.

But wouldn't you think... ok, you escaped all that hell, you've set yourself up in the U.S., you've made a lot of money. Don't you think after a while of just gratifying yourself on your newfound freedoms, you'd want to look out for your fellow man, rather than just spend the rest of your life on profligate indulgence?

Vladimir 4d ago

@rl_dane @evgandr the road to hell is paved with good intentions. I support public healthcare and public education thinking less of a fellow man, but more of the last time I was in San Diego: a homeless person threw a stone at me, I also took a public transport there once.

@contaminase @evgandr

California is a panacea like an ice cream shop in hell is a cool place to hang out. 😆

> you'd want to look out for your fellow man

Speaking about me — yes, possibly money donations for education charity. But I obviously will bore the selected charity with tons of questions and checks, since the last thing I want to do after emigration from Russia — to donate my money to some communists :-D