trissc̈hen May 10
Sheryl Weikal

Cis people: normalize introducing yourself with your pronouns.

If only trans and gnc people do it, we're outing ourselves. If we don't, we accept getting misgendered. And when cis people do it, it acclimates other cis people to the practice and makes it safer for trans and gnc people.

May 9 at 4:14pmopenvibe
Show threadZappesMay 9
@theleftistlawyer @lisamelton The problem is that this request alienates a population that is intrinsically on your side: People who don‘t give a fuck. You can call me me he, she, it or wally, I simply don‘t care. Which is exactly why I generally feel a lot of sympathy towards people who challenge the status quo of caring about bullshit like that. But if you force me to take sides, I‘ll have a strong tendency towards not giving a shit.
Show threadМя ��May 9

@zappes what's the problem with «Hi, I'm <name>, any pronouns»  

@theleftistlawyer @lisamelton

Show threadZappesMay 10
@mo @theleftistlawyer @lisamelton It‘s not interesting to me and I‘ll try to use gender-neutral pronouns until somebody requests differently, anyway. I also have severe ADHD and will forget your pronouns just as fast as your name, anyway. The expectation that I need them in memory to not be called a lot of things I‘m being called here also is really stressful, but I agree that that‘s beside the point and not your problem. Just like pronouns aren‘t really mine.
Show threadOberst EnzianMay 9
@zappes @theleftistlawyer @lisamelton Then that most likely means you weren’t an ally in the first place so there’s no need to worry about alienating you. Anything that forces you to deviate from the bigoted status quo would most likely piss you off. *No need to give any shits if you don’t like it since there’s nothing about any kind of change that isn’t cis het white male centric ever be able to accept.*
Show threadGanondalfMay 9
@zappes @theleftistlawyer @lisamelton
You being a good person, charitable, witty and interesting is far more interesting than what imaginary social classification we've bucketed ourselves into.
Hello fellow entity, I come in peace.
Show threadsprouting Ske-Lil-ton 🌱May 9
@zappes @theleftistlawyer @lisamelton you could just say "use whatever pronouns you want for me" when introducing yourself. It still normalizes mentioning pronouns during introductions without forcing you to give a fuck about what pronouns are used for you
Show threadViktor LinselMay 9
@Larymir @zappes @theleftistlawyer @lisamelton This exactly. I like to introduce myself with "my pronouns are whatever" and it works pretty well.
Show threadslotosMay 9

@zappes @theleftistlawyer @lisamelton

„Don’t bother me” and „it doesn’t cost me much to accommodate you” both fit the mold, but only the latter one would be an ally.

Not giving a fuck is not a singular bucket.

Show threadLi ~ Crystal SystemMay 9

@zappes @theleftistlawyer @lisamelton
ok so if china is fighting a war with america; you wouldn't say the french are an 'ally' just because they haven't attacked anyone yet- now would you?

not attacking eachother is the default, and dont get me wrong, its a good default- it'd be good for everyone if we all just did that, did that;

but .. those who do not attack you are not necessarily your allies, they also aren't helping me; .. 'ally' implies fighting with me;

Show threadKaitlyn~EthyliaMay 9
@zappes @theleftistlawyer @lisamelton is it that hard to say "use whatever pronouns you like, I'm unbothered" or something to that effect?
Show threadNatanox 🇺🇦🇵🇸May 10

@KaitlynEthylia @zappes @lisamelton @theleftistlawyer I think you're missing the point. As Zappes said:

(mentioning lots of minorities) "It‘s just impossible to summon the amount of active participation you demand for each of them."
And
"Yet I simply can‘t be an „activist“ for each group that would deserve it. I don‘t have the energy for that."

So I understand Zappes' criticism more like a "I have limited energy and *don't want others to tell me where to put some extra*". Which is reasonable.

Show threadNatanox 🇺🇦🇵🇸May 10
@KaitlynEthylia @zappes @lisamelton @theleftistlawyer That said, I don't think Sheryl's request "alienates" anyone. It's merely a request to do something, not a demand. I think Zappes over-interpreted something there, which caused a lot of other peeps to point that out (but sometimes missing the point or even getting personal, which is uncalled for).
Show threadZappesMay 10
@Natanox @KaitlynEthylia @lisamelton @theleftistlawyer Both of your posts are absolutely on point and what you said is exactly what I wanted to say.
Show threadFabio BaccaglioniMay 9
@zappes i'm with you on this, i don't give a fuck and can call you whatever you want, no need to specify anything for me, i'm not that special, i don't need that
Show threadRiver  May 10

@fabiomb That would be called "any pronouns". Lots of trans people (and some cis people) use any pronouns. So basically instead of "he" or "she", you can just say "I use any pronouns".

@zappes

Show threadderptronMay 10

@zappes @theleftistlawyer @lisamelton Hopefully you care.

I'm also not going to be doing this but I'm also not going to be turning on LGBTQ+ just because some of them don't like me for it. If they're gonna be like that then the feeling's mutual but it has nothing to do with gender or whatever.

If you can be driven to switch sides because of that then you're already lost. If you're actually driven away for it then that's on them but you don't need to lose your empathy over that crap.

Show threadZappesMay 10
@crazyeddie @theleftistlawyer @lisamelton I‘m not turning against anybody. I just don‘t want to introduce myself in the way that I‘m being asked to here and I resent it when this failure to comply is held against me. And that resentment will absolutely keep me from going out of my way to demonstrate solidarity. But it doesn’t mean that I suddenly become a hater of any sort.
Show threadNelfaneor 🇪🇺 🇧🇪 🫏​✒️​♏​〽️​🟤​May 10
@zappes
We are just in the same position.


@crazyeddie @theleftistlawyer @lisamelton
Show threadGwen's Gay AssMay 10

@zappes @theleftistlawyer @lisamelton "people who don't give a fuck"

And therein lies the problem.

If asking you to care alienates you, are you really on our side?

Show threadZappesMay 10

@Gwendolyn @theleftistlawyer @lisamelton I am 100% on your side in the sense that I want you to be able to live as the person you are, in the way you want to and without being attacked. I hope I did not give you a reason to doubt that.

Yet, your struggle isn‘t mine, and being told to introduce myself in a specific way feels just as wrong as being asked by religious people to behave however they think some god wants me to. No reason to start hating either you or the believers, but it‘s annoying.

Show threadGwen's Gay AssMay 10

@zappes @theleftistlawyer @lisamelton Cool. So you only care about yourself.

Actions speak louder than words there, buddy. You can say whatever you want, but you are functionally against us if asking you to do literally the most basic shit is alienating and a point you found so annoying that you felt the need to confront us on it.

You're not on our side. You're all fucking talk and want a pat on the head for it.

Show threadZappesMay 10

@Gwendolyn @theleftistlawyer @lisamelton See, even though I am an old white cis hetero male, I do care about a lot of groups that aren‘t treated properly. Women, immigrants, handicapped people, trans people - and many more my porous brain doesn‘t come up with right now.

It‘s just impossible to summon the amount of active participation you demand for each of them. It‘s basic self care to demand justice in general terms in that situation. I want you all to be as happy as me.

Show threadZappesMay 10

@Gwendolyn @theleftistlawyer @lisamelton Yet I simply can‘t be an „activist“ for each group that would deserve it. I don‘t have the energy for that. The best I can do is to demand that people treat each other with respect - independent of the specific battles that everyone fights.

And you know what? The „if you are not our champion, you are our enemy“ attitude hurts. A lot. And it doesn‘t help anybody involved, except maybe the Rawlings of this world.

Show threadGwen's Gay AssMay 10
@zappes @theleftistlawyer @lisamelton You know what else doesn't help? Not helping.
Show threadJohn McChesney-YoungMay 9
@theleftistlawyer I've been happy and impressed that when the #UCBerkeley Academic Personnel Office has had meetings for AP analysts, introductions have routinely included pronouns along with name and department.
Show threadCaptain May 9
@theleftistlawyer As said below : Most people don't care. I don't care about your genre and i hope you don't care about mine. Specifying one own's genre seems to me completely unuseful. You're either a cool person or you're a jerk, that's all.
Show threadderptronMay 10

@Captain69 @theleftistlawyer I don't know...

There are just some genres I can't hang with. If I hear any amount of that god awful glam country nonsense, for example, I'm looking for an exit and probably thinking less of everyone in the room that isn't doing the same.

Sorry.

Show threadCairo BragaMay 10
@Captain69 @theleftistlawyer most people very much do care, actually, because that's how all of us were raised: in a structurally gendered world. I'm glad you live in a "post-gender" world, it's a very high privilege to be able to do so. sadly, that's not a shared reality, and being a cool person involves understanding that and not dismissing how people feel about themselves and how they wanna be treated, gendered or not. otherwise, you end up being a jerk.
Show threadCeridwen 🇨🇦🍁🏳️‍🌈🏳️‍⚧️May 9

@theleftistlawyer

The romance is over for this take eww

Show threadGhost Of Old King HamletMay 9

@theleftistlawyer that's just superfluous. It's like every human saying that they're a human. Imagine if you introduced yourself as Hi, I'm [name], [he/she/it], a human. If someone mistook me as a girl I'd correct them and move on, the beard makes it hard tho.

At work we all put pronouns in our profiles, and that's perfect, removes any doubt, especially in online meetings.

Show threadLi ~ Crystal SystemMay 9

@oldkinghamlet @theleftistlawyer except 'human' is a identifier that applies to everyone, while she/he/it is not

(actually, even 'human' applying to everyone, is .. debatable..)

its actually more like saying its superfluous to tell someone your name because you can correct it if they get it wrong xS

the point is so they dont get it wrong in the first place, it leaves no ambiguity- as you said

Show threadGhost Of Old King HamletMay 10

@Li @theleftistlawyer It's impossible to know someone's name by looking at them, so your example makes no sense. Also he/she/it also does apply to everyone, since that's how most languages work.

Someone assuming I'm a guy, on the other hand, is very easy since I'm a big hairy dude. So me saying my pronoun when meeting someone is very superfluous. Just by looking at me you can see I'm a guy and human. If I were trans, then sure, I'd have to say she for example, because it's not obvious.

Show threadLi ~ Crystal SystemMay 10

@oldkinghamlet @theleftistlawyer she/he/it does not "apply to everyone" as one person you call she, another person you call he, another person you call it, etc; you do not refer to the same people these ways; that was the point, its like names in that you might call one person john, another marry, another mike-

and its also impossible to know someones pronouns just by looking at them either; you can only make a guess to them, based on gender presentation, and societal norms around said presentation- you can also make a guess to their name too in the same way actually,

infact there are some studies on this that show that certain names invoke certain kind of ideas on how someone who goes by it might look like; which is also obviously not always accurate, its just theres often not anywhere near as much societal bullshit for when your expectations dont match reality 

explicitly stating it means there is no ambiguity.

Show threadg.earthMay 9
@theleftistlawyer no thank you.
Show threadEllieMay 9
@theleftistlawyer our corpo stuffed pronouns into /everyone's display name/ in ldap, so they show up in email & chat & calendar.
Show threadtyzbitMay 9

@theleftistlawyer i, a cis-passing person, stopped this week thinking about this. i was joining a meeting and thinking about adding my pronouns to my display name despite everyone most likely guessing the ones i prefer.

but then i thought that other people have to add their pronouns if they want people to use the correct ones for them, while i have the privilege of being able to omit them and others still using my preferred pronouns.

finally, i wondered if including pronouns would ruffle any feathers and decided if so, those are feathers that need to be ruffled because human rights and inclusivity do not upset people with their head on straight.

Show threadJo MommaMay 9
@theleftistlawyer no thanks, love you
Show threadslotosMay 9

@theleftistlawyer I… have never thought about it like that.

Thank you and affirmative!

Show threadDagnabbit, Pascaline ! 💥May 9

@theleftistlawyer

Flashback, my Nice Ex on the phone way back in, I think, 2009. He discussed how he started his new class, asking each student their preferred pronouns. It was rather new back then, but he said he had noticed some were uncertain to state it on their own and that this way, everyone had to do it.

Show threadBurdMay 9
@theleftistlawyer I'm good
Show threadocelot221May 9
@theleftistlawyer If the approach was universally accepted that everyone is they/them unless told otherwise, the world would be an easier place for us all.
Show threadCairo BragaMay 9
@ocelot221 @theleftistlawyer sadly, that's not our reality, so let's act and build a better one accordingly. the OP's point still stands true.
Show threadMr. Lance E Sloan (IRL) 👤May 9

@theleftistlawyer
Good idea!

Serious question: Does it also help if I indicate my pronouns by introducing myself as "Mister…"?

Show threadAnalog AIMay 9

@theleftistlawyer

If someone has a hard time doing this, they might consider that without specifying their pronouns we must use "they/them", since they are a person of unknown gender ...

Show threadDr. RakunMay 10
@theleftistlawyer added. I wonder how many pronoun additions your toot will generate 💪
Show threadRachel BMay 10
@theleftistlawyer I'm totally happy to introduce my cis self with pronouns. The problem is that it protects some trans people but outs others. If someone is still figuring out what pronouns they want, or uses one pronoun in one circumstance and a different one in another (often for safety reasons), letting people assume can be a better option. That's especially the case where I have authority in the group; I don't want to pressure people by insisting everybody must share pronouns
Show threadNelfaneor 🇪🇺 🇧🇪 🫏​✒️​♏​〽️​🟤​May 10
@theleftistlawyer
I'm afraid I won't do that. In normal life, I have never been misgendered. I have got a name and it is a clear stance about my gender. It would be an utter irrelevance to insist on my gender.
As far as my presence in the #Fediverse is concerned, I will always stand for a complete freedom in the profile's display and I don't want to give any information about my gender or my sexual inclination, precisely because my involvement in the Fediverse is completely separated from any consideration to that part of my life.
Show threadDick ArmoireMay 10
@theleftistlawyer I put pronouns in my email signature at work. A coworker, a cis woman with a gender-ambiguous name, thought it was an amazing idea because it reduced the chances of her getting misgendered. So it benefits other people too!
Show threadTigrMay 10

@theleftistlawyer

Some provocation always seems to be good. I 'll start using them from now on. Think it will make no harm.

Show threadRachel_CxYMay 10

@theleftistlawyer ✋ Sorry, I don't get it. You mean, irl, in social interactions, you introduce yourself with pronouns?

You don't just correct people if they're wrong?

Why?

I mean, it makes sense to put pronouns in a bio on social media (although I don't think I have done it, and as you point out, I should correct this, which I'm gonna do right now), as people don't see or hear you, but why do it irl? I don't get it.

Show threadThe CyberwitchMay 10
@theleftistlawyer Im on Slack at work and have a gender-neutral name. Which usually defaults to male. I have several coworkers--a guy Shannon, a gal Logan, etc. No pronouns field available in our company slack and I have to believe it's out of sheer stubbornness. I've changed my display name to include mine and updated my company signature, and so far that's all I've seen, with one old man responding positively and utter silence from everyone else. I live somewhere pretty deep red.
Show threadTipMay 11
@theleftistlawyer
The comments are interesting? What i will take from this is that I should update my profile to show pronouns.
Show threadBardMoss the Bodhi Linux GuyMay 12
@theleftistlawyer
I made a portion of a group of socialists very angry when I introduced myself and said, "I'm very old, my pronouns are ho and hum." I thought it was cute. Some people thought otherwise, to the point that I no longer felt welcome.
Show threadVero.Occam.Rigah 🏳️‍🌈♾️💛🖤💜⚪May 18
@theleftistlawyer there are a lot of other trans people asking "please dont bring it up" as in people waiting attention not to go there. I have seen that some people's reality is not simple, nor confortable, or not even devoid of risk.