@dangillmor

I guess this is the Nazi bar analogy, and I sort of get that. But I have a few questions.

First, and I know this is a bit reductio ad absurdum, but bear with me, should we boycott comcast because they let Andrew Tate use their wires? If not, where is the dividing line?

Second, I guess the argument here is that they are platforming an asshole, and using their non-asshole bloggers as leverage. Why doesn't this work in both directions? Can't I plunder Andrew Tate's followers?

@dangillmor

A related question is, given that substack actually appears to work better than its competitors, how much does it cost us to not use it, both in terms of ease of use and in terms of reach.

And how much does it cost us to use it, in terms of the damage that their asshole users cause?

Suppose the answer is that the cost of not using it outweighs the cost of using it. Should we still not use it? If so, why?

@dangillmor

I ask these questions because I know how easy it is to use substack, and also how easy it is to use alternatives like Ghost. I'm actually trying to decide what to do about this—this isn't an idle set of questions.

Right now, it feels a lot like not using substack is similar to not flying to conferences. Airlines are actively harmful in the world, but we don't really have a viable alternative. Should we silence ourselves by not flying?

@dangillmor

A lot of people I admire, e.g. Amanda Litman, Anand Ghiridaradas and Waleed Shahid, use substack. Why are you right and they are wrong?

@abhayakara I always just do the best I can, it's impossible to boycott or move on from everything with shitty people on them or running them.

I don't use any Meta products for example to the point I have a pihole to try and fully block their tracking.  I still use Google though they've proven time and time again to do shitty things.  I have moved from Chrome and experiment with other search engines, but still heavily use their office suite and Gmail.

We quit Target but still use Walmart who is just as bad but the devil you know I guess.

All that to say, for me when a company hits a breaking point where I no longer feel comfortable, that's when I leave. 

It's an imperfect world and we're humans, don't beat yourself up to much about this stuff.

@TheStoneDonkey

The only quibble I would make with this is that if you are doing what makes sense, you shouldn't beat yourself up about it.

I've been a U.S. citizen my whole life, and my country has engaged in many wars I find reprehensible.

Should I have renounced my citizenship? No. It's my country, no more or less than theirs.

Is there no alternative to Walmart? The alternative they closed for me was mine. I want it back, but meanwhile I have to live. It's not wrong to choose to live.

@TheStoneDonkey

How this relates to substack is of course still a matter for debate: there _are_ alternatives. But each of the alternatives I've found is (a lot) more work and has less reach, as far as I can tell.

Of the lot of them, Patreon is probably the best, but they seem to be wandering down the enshittification highway, so we'll see.

@abhayakara @TheStoneDonkey

it's not that complicated

andrew tate is a piece of shit

that substack platforms him is repugnant enough for many people that they just won't use substack

some won't care. well, fuck them

some worry that the air they breathe contains some molecules that were once also breathed by stalin, so they'll stop breathing. yeah these people are a bit much: you follow coherent connections, and apply pressure where it is worth it

it's a balance in life, always

@benroyce @TheStoneDonkey

I don't think we disagree about Andrew Tate. My question is, what specifically are they doing to platform him? Like, did they incentivize him to post on substack? If so, that's a good argument against using substack.

Right now I see them treating him neutrally, which I don't love, but again, so does Comcast (or my ISP, Odido). Should I quit Odido?

So I'm asking, what specifically are they doing. I'm asking because I haven't found a clear answer by searching.

@abhayakara @TheStoneDonkey

"My question is, what specifically are they doing to platform him?"

what?

andrew tate is on substack

they platformed him

🤷

so i don't understand your point

you don't platform sex traffickers

period

well, you can:

and then a large group of people will decide that this is unacceptable, as they should, and leave your platform

@benroyce @TheStoneDonkey

So your answer is that they are not censoring him. That's what you mean by platforming.

Let me know when you cancel your ISP connection.

@abhayakara @TheStoneDonkey

what?

an ISP is not a website

you're arguing "trains can carry nazis, so don't ride trains"

it's a completely incoherent analogy

@benroyce @TheStoneDonkey

I think they are similar, but not the same. We think of ISPs as "common carriers," which is a term that goes back to the days of the railroads, and was really important to making interstate commerce work at that time. It carried forward to the telcos and to some extent the ISPs.

So in a sense the question is, is substack a common carrier? I think you can definitely make an argument that they are not, but you can also say they are. Neither is obviously correct.

@abhayakara @TheStoneDonkey

i think a website and an ISP are different enough concepts that the argument doesn't hold

@benroyce @TheStoneDonkey

Okay, but my retort here is "why do you think that." No need to actually answer this question unless you want to, but that's the thing I'm getting at. For me it's nowhere near as obvious as it seems to be for you.

I think the bending point would be whether it's a community or a public space. If it's a community, imposing community standards makes sense. If it's a public space, then stopping abuse makes sense, but stopping disagreeable speech feels too far.

@abhayakara @TheStoneDonkey

if your argument depends on treating ISPs and websites as the same sort of thing, i don't know what to say