Curious Lily 🇪🇺 ✌🏼 👩🏽💻
Highlands & Islands Greensvia Greenpeace:
Simon BrookeA picture of a wind turbine, with the caption "this machine stops wars"
@simon_brooke There is an ALT text on it - are you unable to see it?
@HI_Greens I did not see it, no. I do see it now. Thank you.
(My mental health is really not good at present. It is possible that it was there and I simply missed it)
Ilpi
@Ilpi @simon_brooke We were just worried the ALT text wasn't showing up across servers!
Syd@GrueneBundestag die @HI_Greens machen tolle Wahlwerbung gegen Krieg.
hazelnot 
@HI_Greens wind turbines are a hell of a lot better than fossil fuels, but unfortunately still use stuff like lithium, cobalt, and rare earth metals, which without an underlying change in political and economic systems will likely have a similar influence on who imperialist powers decide to invade and/or exploit
@hazelnot This is true, Hazel - but don't forget that technology doesn't stand still. The blades, for example, will eventually be replaced by the newer type, that are easier to recycle. And when a wind farm is "repowered" (ie, gets an upgrade on the nacelle), each turbine will have greater efficiency, and over time material scientists will find replacements for many of the substances you mention.
It's like how transistors replaced vacuum tubes.
It's like how transistors replaced vacuum tubes.
@HI_Greens again, I'm not arguing against clean(er) energy, I think replacing fossil fuels with wind, solar, hydro, etc is great!
My point is that technical solutions don't fix social issues, and while getting rid of fossil fuels is great in lots of ways, this isn't really one of those ways
@hazelnot Reasonably, for example if we lived in a matriarchy, the countries where those elements are extracted would be well-paid for them, and there would be worker safety measures in place.
Maybe if we manage to save ourselves from climate collapse we can get on with the job of getting rid of the patriarchal "me first" way of doing things.
Maybe if we manage to save ourselves from climate collapse we can get on with the job of getting rid of the patriarchal "me first" way of doing things.
@HI_Greens if we lived in a matriarchy we'd still have inequality and social hierarchies. Getting rid of the patriarchy is a good start, but it doesn't need to be replaced with anything else. The most important thing to get rid of though is capitalism.
@hazelnot Capitalism *is* patriarchy. Based on private landownership, both of them.
@HI_Greens you're not entirely wrong, they're interconnected, but they're also kinda on different axes of oppression, it's all intersectional
Capitalism enables and feeds from patriarchy, patriarchy enables and feeds from capitalism. They both enable and feed from racism, homophobia, transphobia, etc as well, but they're not the same thing
They're all different issues and they all need to be tackled. Replacing patriarchy with matriarchy wouldn't be a solution though, because it would preserve a gender hierarchy, and that hierarchy would still enable all the other ones going on, it doesn't matter who's on top
Martin Vermeer FCD@hazelnot @HI_Greens Y'all are missing an essential difference: that lithium (more for battery storage than for wind turbines, and on the way out in favour of sodium, which is as common as sea water), cobalt, rare earth metals (like niobium for the magnets in the direct-drive dynamos) is not *consumed*. It is *incorporated*, and then stays there for 20 years or so, before it is either discarded or recycled. The volumes are very different from oil and gas. There won't ever be a Strait of Hormuz for those things. Replacement technologies or alternative extraction options will always be way cheaper and faster than war, even for those parasites not themselves paying the human price.
@martinvermeer @HI_Greens but under capitalism, Infinite Growth™ is mandatory, so waiting 20 years for the materials to become available again is unacceptable to the ghouls at the top
@hazelnot @HI_Greens That's beside the point. Yes, there are limits to growth and we are running headlong into them, but the availability of these 'rare' materials is not where those limits lie.
Ⓐvebury Rosetta 
🍉🏴🚩The countries where [rare-earth] elements are extracted [for renewables] would be well-paid (?!) for them.
Later down the thread you say capitalism is patriarchy. If that is combined with this desire for matriarchy, then it follows that the abolition of capitalism is desired. Since capitalism depends on the exchange of labour power as a commodity, this demand must retain capitalism, albeit in a friendlier form.
This friendlier form wears the phrase "well-paid". This is a gauge on the rate of exploitation. Therefore, exploitation must still exist unless the workers had the dominant voice in the distribution of surplus product. At that point, labour power will be decommodified and "well-paid" will cease to mean anything.
However, the green party will be elected to a position in a government, where they will hire capitalist companies to perform labour on these turbines. The manufacturing of wind turbines will made with the cheapest possible labour, and local capitalist governments are bound to the world market. Capital as a whole aims to reduce the value of labour power as much as possible, and its means include force. Not only that, but capital aims to scale up, meaning short-term extraction must increase over time insofar as capital remains a social force.
@HI_Greens That being said, this technology will significantly reduce wars for oil and gas, as once the turbines are bought they will be in use for decades. However, this cannot last. Capitalism uses every means available to make their products consumable, requiring constant fresh purchases.
Last of the Individuals.If gov't REALLY wanted to go electric, every town would have these by now ... do they REALLY work ? NO ONE knows the trurh.
FinchHaven sfba
bituur esztreym@HI_Greens
and with some adjustement it could very well be a machine that *kills* fascists..
(possible traces of "black ristretto borderline humour" inside)
#prplXprpgnd
axolotl solidario@HI_Greens but the capitalists that profit from them create their own conflicts. Its a shame what they have done to the communities and Ejidos in the isthmus of Mexico.
New technology, without dismantling the economic system that controls its implementation, just creates new problems. No amount of "green" tech will get us out of this mess. Only destroying capitalism and the state can do that.
Bear Jew 2.0 
@HI_Greens Not in the Sauerland. There, it will start wars...
Sigillo SacroThat would be nice if we could all forget how steel is made, or transported, or how those blades are lubricated, or how the crane that installs it is fueled, or that it only has a working life of 15 years or so. We can't afford to lie to ourselves at this point that wind turbines or solar panels are an exit from extraction. Fossil fuels are so deeply embedded in so much of the entire pipeline, there is no petrol free future without less energy demands, period.
The machine also stops dictators' dreams of centralized control.
Re: https://fediscience.org/@martinvermeer/113964399874652197
Keepsake@HI_Greens it is a pleasure to read interesting and polite debate.
Reinald Kirchner@HI_Greens this is a bit of a lie: a machine like that does not stop any war. Thousands of those machines can ease the urge to start a war to satisfy your greed for oil. It does not ease the other factors that might incite wars. Soooo - context matters. Beside fact, that this us a nice meme.