NeonSnake

Typing "the thing about people who get excited about AI, is that they *don't* share my values in any way. Like, the worst thing is they don't believe in - "

and I was about to type "consent"

And then I realised that I've almost* no idea if that genuinely is the *worst* thing or not. Boiling the planet to create shit art? Actively being involved in removing skills from activities? Inability to read a room? The "desperate" sounding nature to justify it?

The list goes on - I'm sure there's load I've missed, of greater or lesser importance, and loads that I'm not even aware of. I find it hard to envisage being offended by feeling unwelcome, given everything that we know about AI, and how people feel about it.

*I'm still comfortable with saying "they don't believe in consent" in this context as being *at least* up there in terms of worst things.

Apr 6 at 7:35amWeb
Show threaddottie says KYLR1d ago

@neonsnake

it boils down to people who actively reduce their own capacity for critical thought, and i cant abide those who choose ignorance, it's one of the greatest "sins" of humanity to my estimation

all the harms done to life and the planet itself by utilizing llms/chatbots are a huge factor, but the core reason i wont interact with people who use llms/chatbots is that i wouldnt be interacting with a being who values their own thoughts

along similar lines a convincing argument can be made that llm/chatbot users dont even have their own thoughts

so why should i value their thoughts if they dont value them?

and if you accept the corollary that they dont even have their own thoughts, what then? am i expected to converse with a thoughtless person? a philosophical zombie?

if i want to hear what they think i can use an llm/chatbot myself and get it straight from the source

Show threadNeonSnake1d ago

@dotdotdottie

(please take this as "trying to get my own thoughts in order", as it *might* come across as argument, and it's not meant to be)

My thoughts have gone to my recipe-posting. Almost none of my recipes are my own, they're versions of other people's recipes from my many, many books. I tweak them to make them accessible, as best I can, to people with low spoons, but that's about it.

The most that I could probably "take credit" for, is that I'm pretty good at, like, pattern recognition, so I'm able to do a "If you cook this on Sunday, hey! You can make stock on Monday, soup on Tuesday, and use leftover X on Wednesday!" or "Hey, you know if you make this, it can be used as a shortcut in *these 4 recipes*?"

I don't *feel* like, in that circumstance, that I'm using my own thoughts, as such; rather, I'm pulling and synthesising from those who came before me?

Not sure if I've made sense properly here lol

Show threaddottie says KYLR1d ago

@neonsnake

makes perfect sense to me actually!

i'm a songwriter, and i tend towards the view that all the music i create is a sort of amalgam of all the music i've listened to throughout my life. some would interpret that as me saying that i havent actually created anything, and therefore my creative process would be similar or even identical to going on suno or whatever other ai song generator and giving it a list of all my favorite music to create something in "my" style

but i also think a critical part of anyone's creative process is taking what came before and remaking or reinterpreting it through the lens of personal lived experience. and that part of creative thought is what is lost when someone decides to let llms/chatbots do their thinking for them

in other words, taking the human out of the loop means that all you have left is the loop itself

so when you (here i mean you yourself, not the general "you") create a recipe from fragments of other recipes it is still you that is doing the creating in essentially an identical process to how i write songs, and i dont say that lightly. but when someone uses a song generator or llm/chatbot or whatever to do a creative act for them (and i consider thinking itself to be a creative act akin to speaking or writing), they are intentionally taking themselves out of the loop and i find that so sad, and in many ways incredibly disgusting and wasteful. creation is a joy, and the creative process is a joyful act, even though it can be frustrating at times and is rarely convenient

so i think with "ai" the choice is between the joy and beauty inherent to creation, or opting instead for mediocrity and conformity

Show threadNeonSnake1d ago

@dotdotdottie

"in other words, taking the human out of the loop means that all you have left is the loop itself"

That feels like a really good way of putting it - thank you!

FWIW (and I also don't say this lightly), I view music creation as something akin to magic. I don't just "like" music, I *love* music, but the act of creating it is something that I just cannot wrap my own personal brain around. It really seems like magic to me!

I don't know if it's quite the same, but I take no small amount of pleasure in sitting down once a week, reviewing the contents of my fridge and freezer, with a pen and paper in hand, and thinking "right then? What's the plan for the week, given that I've got some cabbage that's almost on the turn, some cheese in the door, I've got an appointment on Wednesday, but I've got time on Monday to make bread" and etc etc.

And the joy is in the "oh! Oh, oh, wait, I know! I'll do *this particular cabbage and bread soup* and then I can do turkey steaks on Tuesday, X on Wednesday, and I'll need to go shopping for Thursday"

I can only assume that there's already some app out there, that if I were to plug in all the ingredients, will give me an utterly soulless and bland meal plan for the week.

I also assume that something similar exists for music that's going to produce something that...oh, wait, I just remembered Coldplay 😜

Show threaddottie says KYLR1d ago

@neonsnake

i've been writing songs for almost 30 years, and that moment you describe, when a creative thought seems to appear from nowhere, fully formed in your mind? i live for that moment, it is everything to me. i actually dont think i could go on living if i couldnt create

to your point about the magic of creation, even after being a musician for 30 years, i still couldnt explain how i go from playing one chord to a whole chord progression to a melody that fits and so on. it is a huge reason why i focus so much of my energy on creating music, the unknowability means i am always drawn back to try and discover something new about the song, and by extension myself

so i believe the creative act is genuinely a type of magic, probably the only real magic ever to exist in the world. there's something that happens beyond my awareness or understanding that is tangible and real, but also ephemeral and dreamlike. i never get into a flow state as fast as when i start writing songs, i'll look up and realize my throat is sore and my lips are chapped and i havent stopped to take a sip of my now-stale tea for 2 or 3 hours

that's why i am so frustrated and even disgusted by people who choose to sacrifice their creativity for convenience! when i write a catchy hook or melody it's a revelation, heaven opens up and lets me glimpse eternity for a moment. and of course it's gone just as quickly, but for that instant i feel like an angel trumpeting god's arrival on the earth

the creative act is a power beyond my comprehension, a true magic, and that's without even getting into how my music affects other people! there's is nothing as addictive to me as playing a song i wrote and hearing people sing my words back to me. or like the last time i played a gig when i heard someone say "holy shit!" at a particularly provocative line i had written, i think about that moment nearly every day. i used to be an actor and i got a similar feeling when there was a strong audience response to a well-delivered line. and i've been a home cook for decades, and a commercial cook at times, and the feeling is the same for me when a dish comes out tasty and people are humming as they eat it, even if i'm eating alone and doing the humming lmaoo

anyway, this went on much longer than i intended, but i agree with you wholeheartedly. my only personal goal at this point is to keep creating every day

Show threadNeonSnake1d ago

@dotdotdottie "anyway, this went on much longer than i intended"

not at all - I could read this all day!

I was never an "artistic" performer, but I was always the "go-to" guy if you wanted a presentation doing in front of a couple of hundred people at work, and you were a "I don't like public speaking type" - just give it to me and I'll do it, even if I've never seen the slides before, I'll still get everyone interested and involved, and make them laugh.

I suspect I got the same hit in that circumstance 😜

I'm doing some cooking pre-prep, I've got some 90s music on that I've not listened to for while, and I'm dancing like no-one is watching (and they probably shouldn't), so thank you

Show threaddottie says KYLR1d ago

@neonsnake

you're welcome! i hope you enjoy the cooking, and dancing to the 90s music!