RE: https://fosstodon.org/@ovid/116334866923361500

My earlier thread on 4,000 years of enshittification got some great responses. One question kept coming up: if the extraction pattern is deeper than capitalism, what is the root cause? I think I have the start of an answer, but it means annoying people across the political spectrum.

1/9

Marx correctly identified capital as extractive. His solution was collective ownership, with the state as a temporary bridge. Every implementation saw the bridge become permanent. The party became the new extractive class.

Libertarianism correctly identifies that institutions are extractive. Its solution: strip them away and let markets sort it out. Each one correctly diagnoses a disease, then prescribes a cure that causes the same disease.

2/9

Because both models miss the deeper pattern. It's not capital or government that's the problem. It's power asymmetry and power asymmetries are convertible. Eliminate economic power and political power expands to fill the gap. Eliminate political power and economic power does the same.

3/9

I should explain how assymetries are "convertible."

A tech founder has informational power (a proprietary algorithm). That converts to economic power (market dominance, stock price). Economic power converts to political power (lobbying, regulatory capture). Political power converts back to economic power (favorable legislation, weakened antitrust). The cycle completes.

The point is that if you eliminate one type of power, such as abolishing private capital, the people who still hold other forms of power (political connections, social networks, information access, capacity for violence) can convert those into whatever replaces capital. The extraction continues through a different channel.

We cannot fight a pattern we don't learn to recognize.

@ovid The pattern that needs to be recognized, is not the extraction, that is obvious. Rather it's why the opposition fails even though they are numerically superior and should win based on theoretical power. This is only slightly less obvious: it's because they fight more against themselves than the real enemy. This is something that people really don't want to hear, I've noticed. Even the people that refused to vote for Harris still refuse to understand the problem...
@ovid Instead of studying Marx, I recommend studying organizations that actually succeeded. A number of labor organizations actually made things vastly better for the workers. Western Europe has lots of opportunities for comparative analysis of what worked and what didn't.
@trademark Yup. I also want to do more digging into the Nordic model. 6 out of the top happiest countries in the world arguably use the Nordic model (exceptions are Israel and Costa Rica). Nordic countries are highly inclusive and very innovative, but much of their innovation is on a smaller scale than the "I Wanna Be a Billionaire" model of the US.
@ovid interestingly I believe they all have more dollar billionaires per capita than the US does, e.g. Iceland pop 300 000 has one :)

@trademark To be extremely clear: if you have a business idea and become insanely rich, I have NO PROBLEM WITH THIS if you fairly earned that money.

If you did it through extractive means (/me waves at Uber), then no, this is not right. So the question isn't whether they have more billionaires per capita (they are, after all, very innovative), but whether that behavior was extractive.