RE: https://fosstodon.org/@ovid/116334866923361500

My earlier thread on 4,000 years of enshittification got some great responses. One question kept coming up: if the extraction pattern is deeper than capitalism, what is the root cause? I think I have the start of an answer, but it means annoying people across the political spectrum.

1/9

Marx correctly identified capital as extractive. His solution was collective ownership, with the state as a temporary bridge. Every implementation saw the bridge become permanent. The party became the new extractive class.

Libertarianism correctly identifies that institutions are extractive. Its solution: strip them away and let markets sort it out. Each one correctly diagnoses a disease, then prescribes a cure that causes the same disease.

2/9

Because both models miss the deeper pattern. It's not capital or government that's the problem. It's power asymmetry and power asymmetries are convertible. Eliminate economic power and political power expands to fill the gap. Eliminate political power and economic power does the same.

3/9

I should explain how assymetries are "convertible."

A tech founder has informational power (a proprietary algorithm). That converts to economic power (market dominance, stock price). Economic power converts to political power (lobbying, regulatory capture). Political power converts back to economic power (favorable legislation, weakened antitrust). The cycle completes.

The point is that if you eliminate one type of power, such as abolishing private capital, the people who still hold other forms of power (political connections, social networks, information access, capacity for violence) can convert those into whatever replaces capital. The extraction continues through a different channel.

We cannot fight a pattern we don't learn to recognize.

@ovid The pattern that needs to be recognized, is not the extraction, that is obvious. Rather it's why the opposition fails even though they are numerically superior and should win based on theoretical power. This is only slightly less obvious: it's because they fight more against themselves than the real enemy. This is something that people really don't want to hear, I've noticed. Even the people that refused to vote for Harris still refuse to understand the problem...
@ovid Instead of studying Marx, I recommend studying organizations that actually succeeded. A number of labor organizations actually made things vastly better for the workers. Western Europe has lots of opportunities for comparative analysis of what worked and what didn't.
@ovid especially the Comintern split, where the cooperative, sane people broke with the extremist nutcases. Much more useful detail available than old histories about Ur of the Romans.
@trademark Also, which "comintern split" are you referring to? There are a few things that might apply, but at the end of the day, those willing to extract power/wealth kept winning. Just because there are sane people doesn't mean there are *effective* people.
@ovid communist international organized from Moscow. From memory one of the most contentious issues was whether workers could be religious at all, should be discouraged or just welcomed like any other. Most of the western European parties/unions that broke with Moscow over this still exist and some are in power right now.