RE: https://fosstodon.org/@ovid/116334866923361500

My earlier thread on 4,000 years of enshittification got some great responses. One question kept coming up: if the extraction pattern is deeper than capitalism, what is the root cause? I think I have the start of an answer, but it means annoying people across the political spectrum.

1/9

Marx correctly identified capital as extractive. His solution was collective ownership, with the state as a temporary bridge. Every implementation saw the bridge become permanent. The party became the new extractive class.

Libertarianism correctly identifies that institutions are extractive. Its solution: strip them away and let markets sort it out. Each one correctly diagnoses a disease, then prescribes a cure that causes the same disease.

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Because both models miss the deeper pattern. It's not capital or government that's the problem. It's power asymmetry and power asymmetries are convertible. Eliminate economic power and political power expands to fill the gap. Eliminate political power and economic power does the same.

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What other kinds of extraction do both miss? Kinship networks. The Soviet nomenklatura extracted through party connections. Silicon Valley extracts through founder-class access. Ibn Khaldun documented this in the 14th century: the cohesive in-group always extracts from everyone outside it.

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Informational asymmetry. Sumerian priests controlled literacy and therefore controlled surplus. Medieval guilds hoarded trade secrets. Modern finance extracts through complexity regulators can't parse. Communism assumes state planners will be benevolent with their knowledge advantage. Libertarianism assumes markets make information transparent.

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Ecological extraction is stealing from the future. Externalizing costs onto people who don't exist yet and can't fight back. Soviet industrialization and unregulated capitalism have both been catastrophic here. Neither model has a mechanism to represent future populations. The extraction just changes who gets the bill.

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Religious and ideological extraction. Tithes under feudalism. Enforced conformity under state atheism. Prosperity gospel under capitalism. Control over meaning and legitimacy is a form of power, and it generates extraction under every economic system we've tried.

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The difficult conclusion: the fundamental problem isn't capital or government or religion. It's that any sufficiently large power asymmetry will be exploited for extraction. Or, as I put it in my earlier thread: if you can get away with it, it takes less energy to steal than to create.

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This is why solutions designed to eliminate one form of power just create a vacuum for another. We need mechanisms designed for recurrence, one that assume extraction will re-emerge through whatever channel is left open. Because it always has.

9/9

@ovid participatory budgeting? We could also try representative democracy instead of just systems of fabricated consent. Gerrymandering and voter suppression are too easy in the 2-party game, besides buying both sides.
@enobacon Participatory budgeting? I know Ricardo Semler helped prevent some extraction with SemCo. Part of this was offering every employee training on how to read annual reports. It let them make better decisions on how to collectively run the company and the company grew like mad as a result. Fascinating to watch.
@ovid https://council.nyc.gov/pb/ says NYC is doing it now, " began in Porto Alegre, Brazil in 1989". I'm sure it still gets steered by bureaucrats but the proposal are supposed to come from the bottom up, delegates, final vote of the public. That requires voters to be informed and engaged... so I guess we'll see how that goes.
Participatory Budgeting

New York City Council - Participatory Budgeting

Participatory Budgeting
@ovid Which maybe points toward the notion of encouraging "countervailing powers". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countervailing_power
Countervailing power - Wikipedia

@jyasskin Added to my notes. Thank you! Totally forgot about that, but yeah, it's an interesting angle.
@ovid I apologize if this is inappropriately left-field but Iโ€™m curious if this could feel useful! Because my background/lived experience is primarily substance use disorder, I immediately recognize the cycle of that - on a much more individual/micro scale - here. Part of the extraordinary challenge of โ€œgetting soberโ€ is overcoming such asymmetry, figuring out how to build a pattern of choosing the hard thing overtop a well-worn history (and intimate knowledge) of choosing the much easier one. You clearly have a knack for uncovering the parallels so I wonโ€™t ramble on. For the record, Iโ€™d def pre-order this - with a side of flowers for your wife, too.

@laurel Definitely not an inappropriate comment. Different POVs help me look at things differently!

I like the idea of addiction as a metaphor; it's powerful. It's also dangerous. @pteryx pointed out that I was teetering on victim-blaming and I think "addiction" does, too. But I also have known addicts who *like* their addiction and just gloss over the side effects. Short-term reward versus long-term wellbeing.

But I won't tell my wife about the flowers. I'd have to fess up to the book.

@laurel Also, DON'T APOLOGIZE! Even if someone tells me I'm being a complete idiot, if they offer a strong justification, I want to hear it. This problem appears systemic and hard to deal with. I would love to hear counter-arguments suggesting that the situation isn't as fatalistic as I'm implying.
@ovid This is a fantastic assembly of a bunch of abandoned notes I've made over the years that range from "billionaires are a policy failure" to "capitalism literally becomes the deification of capital and that's why OpenAI's neg about the value of money has got the rich so terrified to invest". The term I was obviously missing there was converting their power from control of capital to control of the thing that replaces it.