Mastodawn

smells of bikes 1d ago

jonny (good kind)

So since I got my finger blowed up, I can't really play piano, and I have been taking on psychic damage ever since.

However it seems like I might be able to play an accordion, since my blowed up finger is on my left hand and accordion seems like it has much less "ballistic" hits to the finger.

But I can't make heads or tails about what in the fuck kind of accordion to try: I play mostly moody emo Chopin sadgirl tunes, and I love piazzola, so I was reading about bandoneons, but it turns out that you can't actually get one (like literally it seems like they were only mass manufactured pre WWII and now only for like $10k custom made) and the key layout means you can like only play tango on them. And then since its a folk instrument there are like one million other kinds of accordion and I can't tell how much each is specialized for a specific kind of music.

Is there anyone on here I reach who plays #accordion and can help me out knowing what kinda button bag to play? I would be a beginner accordionist but I have been playing piano my whole life and am looking for a long term romance I mean replacement, so I don't need the like "there are 5 notes on this one and you can't go wrong" kind. I would love to be able to play sea shanties and folk punk tunes, but if its also possible to play some Chopin or Debussy arrangements on the thing that would be extremely emotionally valuable to me.

edit: thank you accordionists of the fedi for the information, and non-accordionists of the fedi for helping me reach them. my questions have been largely answered and i am gonna pick one up shortly :)

jonny (good kind)1d ago

I don't have a ton of money, but if it turns out that I just need multiple bags to play different kinds of music, so be it, I am just not sure where to start.

jonny (good kind)4h ago

now my question is "where do you get the sheet music" and also "what even is the sheet music with this dang stradella bass in the picture"

@jonny I was new to the button box 25+ years ago and never looked back.

I forked out a bunch for a serious 2.5 row button box in 2000, it's lasted through many a gig since then without trouble. I've only had to replace the electronics (it is 🎤 d). It's a Saltarelle Pastourelle III

Really different from a piano keyboard. Really good for shanties.

Attwenger is a band which makes superb use of button box IMO

https://youtu.be/cIrbojnHeqY?si=DwmtWBap6_dfQ8Yo

HiAso

YouTube

jonny (good kind)1d ago

@grechaw
Hell yes. Thanks for the recommendation :)

@jonny some players don't use the left hand at all. It's an excellent melodic instrument, but it is keyed, so gets awkward as you move away from home keys (or just gets ... modal). Mine is a GC box and the half row gives me some notes that aren't in G or C major. Much lighter than a piano accordion, varies a lot with number of reeds.

Marc Trius 4h ago

@jonny if I was trying to get back into this sort of thing I'd get a bayan from Ukraine and get it repaired. I was never very good at it but I knew a guy who could play basically anything from jazz and folk to an orchestral arrangement of Blue Danube

Marc Trius 3h ago

@jonny https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=D_8ZDhAFs_A

Paganini - Liszt - La Campanella - Alexander Dmitriev - Virtuose Accordion Bayan

YouTube

forestine 1d ago

@jonny i hope you find a new love!

jonny (good kind)1d ago

@forestine
I have been searching for "what kind of instruments can you play that are pianolike but you can play with 9 fingers or else 10 fingers but very gently" and it has led me to some interesting places and a bunch of hours in music and junk shops touching lots of stuff, and one day one of them will become my new emotional wellspring

forestine 1d ago

@jonny i gotcha. i can't really play guitar anymore because of arthritis and find modular to be really accessible for me personally and was glad to find something i can play while in pain

@jonny i feel like the kind with keyboard on one side & the Stradella Bass button system on the other should be pretty versatile, and the bass system won't be too hard to pick up since you already know piano. (it just goes by the circle of fifths, with a selection of bass notes & chords in each column).

120 bass is super common, but I think there are smaller versions out there too

jonny (good kind)1d ago

@nash
This is the neighborhood I am landing in, but the amount of subtlety within that is somewhat paralyzing - like how many voices? What reed configuration and tuning? Mono or diatonic? And I can't find a decent information source on how much that matters or how they affect play. Do you have one you play that you might recommend?

@jonny ohh, yeah that makes sense. & ya know, I never had to deal with that because I saw one on craigslist ages ago & scooped it up without ever knowing what I was getting or getting into.

mine is a Silvio Marotta Concerto Continental Mark III, but to be honest I don't play enough to really know what I would recommend!

jonny (good kind)1d ago

@nash
Thanks regardless, I'll take a listen!!

@jonny I hope you're able to find one that suits you well! Accordions are so cool. They're little musical powerhouses in terms of what you can do with them vs how compact they are.

John Timaeus 1d ago

Don't let the instrument paralysis keep you from playing. Get a piano accordion with the reeds in good shape (I've seen how much repairs cost). Play it. Look for the perfect instrument while you figure out what you want.

Also check your local irish sessions, polka and klezmer bands, etc. There's a good chance you'll run into clued players who know of cheap but good instruments in your area.

@jonny I have recently made a toy bandoneon from an A0 sheet for my niece as part of her enchanted dress up for a kindergarten party.. It pumped the air and I attached a whistle to it. I'm pretty sure you can make a decent one diy using like a harmonica and a bit of origami

jonny (good kind)1d ago

@licho
Haha that is awesome and that is an extremely good raising the young ones right moment. I am a big DIY head but I do want something that is a musical instrument and I don't necessarily trust myself to make something that sounds good

Megan Lynch (she/her)1d ago

@jonny I think @AccordionBruce is your contact, or at least the gateway to them.

jonny (good kind)1d ago

@meganL
@AccordionBruce
Thank you for the connection and I am humbled that there are such accordion experts among us

🏳️‍🌈 Bri 🌞🚴🌱✨1d ago

@jonny accordion is such a beautiful instrument! I had a moment of excitement recently when I realized that my new piano skills should transfer to accordion. Still, I'm sorry about your finger, that's terrible ☹️

NilaJones 1d ago

As a fellow music nerd who sustained a bad hand injury, I wish you the very best in finding a new love!

I hope the accordion works out for you. But if it doesn't, and if you feel like you might could accommodate a more radical shift, recorder is very easy on the fingers

And there are brass instruments, of course

jonny (good kind)1d ago

@NilaJones
I have definitely considered it. I have been learning a drumkit a little bit on the side, and toying with the idea of some of the hammer dulcimers, but yeah I just miss my dang Chopin

Iris Young (he/they/she) (PhD)1d ago

@jonny I have a friend who plays accordion. Sounds like you have a strong lead already but lmk if you want to talk to my friend also.

What happened to your finger? I missed this!

jonny (good kind)1d ago

@iris
LAPD blew it up!

Iris Young (he/they/she) (PhD)1d ago

@jonny if I had to guess, that's what I'd have guessed, but fuck. I'm sorry to hear that. I wish you a speedy healing process and I hope you are able to make peace with the permanent changes.

John Carlsen 🇺🇸🇳🇱🇪🇺1d ago

@jonny maybe reach out to nearby community colleges and/or music stores for information on beginning accordion? Good luck to you

It’s interesting and weird how many configurations there are. I really like the button accordions used in styles like Cajun/ Zydeco or Vallenato (Colombia). Those definitely aren’t for Chopin, though. Good luck!

In case you are interested in an accordion-heavy movie, I could recommend the The Wind Journeys from Colombia.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6M5bQ3CmWGI

The Wind Journeys (2009) | Trailer | Marciano Martínez | Yull Núñez | Agustin Nieves

YouTube

Den of Earth 1d ago

@jonny
Does it have to be acoustic? Electronic keyboards tend to require much less pressure than either electronic or acoustic pianos. Apologies if this is not what you're looking for.

jonny (good kind)1d ago

@DenOfEarth
Yes, unfortunately the lightest keyed keyboards can't do dynamic range needed to make classical piano sound good, and even then I have to slap my finger against the keys and touch them at odd angles which is painful. I am trying to make a silicone fingertip glove basically as padding, but that will take a bit of time

Den of Earth 1d ago

@jonny
Gah that's unfortunate. Best of luck finding something that works for you. ❤️

AccordionBruce 22h ago

@jonny @DenOfEarth
If you get a big accordion, they have the same range as a piano!

But there’s a bunch of slapping registers, which is and stuff around in order to do that kind of pyrotechnics

@jonny Maybe @AccordionBruce can shed some light on accordion options for you post-injury. 🪗 Good luck, the sea shanties, folk punk, and classical arrangements await your return to music, whether it's via accordion or something else.

AccordionBruce 22h ago

@fembot @jonny @meganL
I do think if you have piano skills probably starting on piano 🪗 is an easy plan

George Bachich’s little book is a good starter for first time #accordion buyers and problems to look out for buying used

PIANO ACCORDION OWNER’S MANUAL AND BUYER’S GUIDE https://accordionrevival.com

AccordionBruce 22h ago

@fembot @jonny @meganL
Size?
If you want to play classical-ish maybe just go for 120 bass. Probably easiest to find, more options

Counterintuitively might be cheaper than some smaller instruments that are in demand for portability

If you want smaller than 120 bass that will narrow your options so make choosing easier

Don’t get fewer than 48 bass. 72 or 78 might be better for your style, but do not fear the big 120 unless it’s too heavy

Most only play a few buttons at a time usually

AccordionBruce 22h ago

@fembot @jonny @meganL
Maybe try to find a local player to help find a good instrument

It can be hard to know the quality of one without inspecting the reeds inside

But basically play every note going in and out, and if they’re in tune, that’s a good bet

Do this with every register switch, which I’m sure it could be really annoying and take a minute for a big accordion, but it sounds all the reeds

If any of them are not in tune, probably don’t buy it because they are very expensive to fix

AccordionBruce 22h ago

@fembot @jonny @meganL
If you don’t mind my asking, where are you located?

Occasionally there’s someone we could recommend that you contact, though there aren’t many shops left

We do have a lot of friends we might be able to connect you with I suppose

jonny (good kind)4h ago

@AccordionBruce
oh wow thank you so much for this information. i'll be getting a copy of this book, as it also looks like it's an accordion hacker's guide, and i admit i do tend to unwisely open up things and start poking at them.

I am in LA, so there are lots of music shops, but the accordion dealers i could find are mostly focused on higher-end/custom accordions, and the more conventional music shops are mostly selling to public school students it seems. I found a shop in PA that has lots of lovely old instruments with videos for each one. I do have a bit of a romantic streak and will play used instruments that have a history to them over new instruments that might cause me less trouble, and accordions in particular seem to have a huge amount of history to them - i found the forum at https://www.accordionists.info and was immediately charmed reading it, there is a lot of folk history there!!!!

it's good to know that i don't need to worry about all the incredibly variation in these instruments to get started, i couldn't tell if i would get 'locked in' to a key layout that was specialized for a type of music, but reading and searching a bit makes it seem like aside from the major categories like chromatic/diatonic, button/key, free bass/stradella, that many of the differences are more along the lines of "grand piano vs. upright vs. spinet" than "piano vs. harpsichord vs. pipe organ."

The Accordionists Forum

An accordion forum open to all

The Accordionists Forum

jonny (good kind)4h ago

@AccordionBruce I haven't even gotten my hands on one yet and i am already worried about my desire to open it up and mess with the internals. i wonder what the difficulty in tuning is like compared to the piano - i grew up in a family of musicians, so i was taught from a young age "most instruments the musician should be able to tune as easily as breathing. except for piano. for piano you never try and tune it yourself, you can't do it, and even if it seems like you can you still can't. hire a piano tuner." and i wonder if accordion is the same way

@AccordionBruce @jonny @meganL
Thanks so much for the info on accordions+, Bruce. A lot to consider and some places to start. I hope it helps in your quest, Jonny.

@jonny with my arthritis, I’ve been giving some thought to a theremin.

dunno much about accordions, so can't help there, and not trying to do the classic mastodon "here, consider a different thing" but also you're into weird music stuff and I think you'll like the ride at least, if you're not already familiar with this stuff...

so, if it's the 2D note array of the accordion bass keys that helps – and if you're not opposed to weird midi controllers – you might be interested in keyboards with isomorphic key layouts. I've got one of these guys and it's a fun time https://www.c-thru-music.com/cgi/?page=prod_axis-49

"isomorphic" implies transpositionally-invariant chord shapes, which is of nice compared to piano layout with altogether too many shapes for the same chord. keys for that board aren't huge, so one hand can span multiple octaves. it's designed for the Wicki-Hayden layout, which repeats horizontally so that in WH-mode the board effectively has two halves that are mirrors of each other, each with 49 keys spanning 4 octaves + 1...
https://www.c-thru-music.com/cgi/?page=layout_49map

but there's also a mode that maps midi notes 1-98 (in a less-ideal layout than WH, but allowing for getting weird), so you can remap that mode to a wicki-hayden layout but with left half shited 4 octaves below the right half and have a full 8-octave keyboard.

the company that made that particular board has been defunct for years, but it looks like there's some being resold https://reverb.com/item/91238990-c-thru-axis-49-controller-midi-keyboard

there's also other isomorphic keyboard options, but not many and probably most are in the >$1000 range. and there's other key/note layouts aside from wicki-hayden but pmuch the only other key layouts available would be orthogonal layouts (like a guitar fret board) - Linnstrument is a cool controller that supports MIDI MPE, the Harpejji is an acoustic string instrument. isomorphic keyboards also have a long history going back at least to Heimholtz iirc, with old cool guys like the Janko keyboard (think there was a Japanese janko midi controller at one point even).

The AXiS-49 USB music interface

AXiS-49 USB MIDI music interface, MIDI keyboard, USB keyboard.

C-Thru-Music.com

@jonny
Wicki-Hayden also works well for syntonic temperament stuff, which is pretty nifty if you're into the regular temperaments/microtonals... there's a couple digital synths at least that support dynamically morphing between tonalities.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regular_diatonic_tuning#Syntonic_temperament_and_timbre

also there's a weird rabbit hole there, which appear to have been scrubbed from the internet... in the "research" section below that one you'll see "Guido 2.0 seeks to achieve a 10x increase in the efficiency of music education" ... and if the 10x smells funny it's because the link goes to the website of Eric Weinstein... yes, of Theil Capital, IDW, and physics/math crackpot fame. apparently he got into tonal theory through his math crackpottery, and of course he was as much of a crackpot there as he is anywhere else. I'm in a microtonal music theory group and they make fun of him a good bit. I'm curious if he scrubbed the microtonal stuff from his site because he got laughed out of those spaces.

Regular diatonic tuning - Wikipedia

jonny (good kind)4h ago

@lina holy hell that is an awesome rabbit hole. so it's not necessarily the shape of the array as much as the amount of pressure that's required to press the buttons and the potential not needing to use the pinky to play (left hand pinky is obvi extremely important to piano and especially chopin as it is like the chord root and usually needs to be doing sforzandos or be slightly emphasized over other notes in the chord). so thinking accordion because i have seen stradella players play without pinky and also the dynamics are controlled by the bellows not the key press.

however i am also interested in learning the stradella bass system for the music theory angle of it all, and so seeing similar grids for midi controllers does indeed pique my interest

@jonny
yeah i think the smaller keys and note array (stradella or otherwise) sound like they could save your pinky from needing to hit as many chord roots, just because of closer key grouping that could allow your ring or even middle finger to hit notes that would be too far away for them on a piano. I think the layout for stradella/etc accordion keys is different than Wicki-Hayden, but should still have similar benefits. do accordion players ever use their thumbs to hit those keys? I guess that's another reason that those midi controllers allow covering such a large note range with one hand... I can cover at least 3 octaves between thumb and pinky on my axis-49, but I'm not sure how far I can get between forefinger and pinky.

if you do end up considering those controllers, the axis-49 keys aren't weighted... lightweight + small travel. you'd probably be hard pressed to find one to test out unless one of those sellers on reverb is local. i could see how much it'd cost to ship mine to you to test drive though, if piqued interest gets strong enough.

sorry to hear the pinky is still all fucked up 😣 are you still just waiting on it to heal further before the docs can make a recommendation for surgery or whatever other next steps? feels like it's coming up on a year since it happened!

Tufty Indigo 🪗19h ago

@jonny If you're already a strong pianist, piano accordion is the obvious option, and I sense you'd get on best with a relatively dry-tuned instrument rather than musette, which doesn't get on with spicy harmonies as well. Piano accordion is widely available (check pawn shops, people are always finding their grandad's one in the loft) and it's relatively easy to find a teacher if you want one.
If you get one with free-bass, you can play melodies on the left hand but I don't know if that would be any easier for your bad finger than a piano. If you use Stradella bass (the more common kind), it's more musically limiting but you can probably get by without using one finger at all.
If you like playing in keys with lots of sharps and flats, a 120 bass instrument is worthwhile, but a 72 can still technically play in every key, it's just hard - but you get a much lighter instrument to make up for it.
I recommend every musician learn Stradella bass, it completely changed my understanding of the circle of fifths.

jonny (good kind)4h ago

@tuftyindigo thank you for the information :). It seems like many accordions can switch between tones by switching registers of reeds that are active, and for many of those you can switch between a musette chorus sound and a drier sound. but also i do see people talking about the dryness being intrinsic to the instrument or the current state of tuning for all the registers. i sort of want to do both, so i wonder if that's a 'two instruments' or a 'instrument that can switch between tones' situation.

i have been watching videos comparing how people use their left hand in free bass vs stradella, and while free bass sounds rad and is probably what i would be after if my hand worked well, i watched a number of people playing stradella not even use their pinkie at all, which is what i am after. so i think i will go with that.

i'm still learning about how the tuning works and am curious what you mean re: 72/120 and how 72 can play every key except it being hard - like what is hard about it? just awkward hand shapes?

Martin Thornton 17h ago

@jonny @AccordionBruce I suggest a 72 Stradella bass piano accordion. I started my accordion journey with a second-hand refurbished Czech one coming from playing mostly piano. Good range on the bass and you'll be able to get a really good feel for the instrument. After a while you might get fed up of a few bass limitations which is where bigger bass options are handy and you might want a longer piano keyboard. I found that 3+2 reeds (5, 3 registers) are enough. Always try before buying!