Max Leibman
"Your #NoKings marches are cute, but nothing is going to change until we do something serious, like a general strike."

–Person posting on social media who is not active in organizing a general strike
4:55amWeb
Show threadMax Leibman9h ago
Nonviolent resistance movements have historically become more likely to bring about change when a critical mass of the population (thought to be around 3.5%) gets involved. Are mass protests on a few Saturday a year "involved" enough to bring change about? Probably not. But it's a way in. It's building the muscle. You have to get someone to show up one day before you can get them to show up often, or every day, or for the long haul.
Show threadvery normal person9h ago
@maxleibman fair point, but considering that No Kings has paid organizers, national infrastructure etc. maybe they could also help with that? Shouldn't we expect more from people who claim to be our leaders?
Show threadliferstate9h ago
@mook Just for example, Indivisible is an umbrella organization for literally thousands of local political advocacy groups, all of whom operate independently with different focus and tactics. "General strike" isn't some abstract thing. It's a labor action. For that, you need experienced labor organizers in charge, which Indivisible (or any national group working on No Kings) most certainly is not.
@maxleibman
Show threadliferstate9h ago
@mook I'm talking about Indivisible simply because I'm involved with my local group. Both the national org & local groups are very good at mobilizing phone/email pressure campaigns, showing up at electeds' offices, picketing at a moment's notice. But every time the national org has stepped out of that wheelhouse it's fallen flat. Asking why they're not working on a general strike is like asking a plumber why they aren't also fixing your roof.
@maxleibman
Show threadvery normal person9h ago
@liferstate @maxleibman i am not very smart, so i'm struggling to reconcile the first part of that paragraph with the second, you say first that Indivisible is an umbrella group made up of thousands of local groups ( many of them presumably unions ) and then you say in the end Indivisible "most certainly" doesn't have any experienced labor organizers, and so that's not their department, -- so which is it, an umbrella organization or a specialized PAC?

Isn't the whole purpose of such an umbrella organization to develop a coherent national strategy? To unite these disparate groups behind a plan? and why wouldn't that include a labour component?

I get what you mean about the logistical/technical problems involved in something like a general strike, you need a strong union movement first, and organizers dedicated to that task. But if No Kings, as a kind of vehicle for mass mobilization isn't assisting the labour movement, then what is the point? Just protesting for the sake of protesting?
Show threadvery normal person8h ago
@liferstate @maxleibman

this is what's frustrating is apparently everyone is supposed to come out to No Kings because it's a mass thing everyone gets behind, but actually there's this professional leadership ( are they even elected ) who already have a set agenda before you even get there, and we're just supposed to show up and leave... and when it comes to, in this case, labour organizing, that's something we're supposed to do somewhere else? like it's off topic?

I would think the point of these protests would be to get people into the streets, networking and meeting with local people, and using this as a means of organizing along various fronts, if it's not that, if it's just this astro-turfed single-issue thing to get establishment Dems elected, I wasted my best years doing that already. I'm not interested in helping Epstein Dems get elected if i'm not getting paid myself.

Like based on what I've heard, I'm seriously wondering if I'll get a stern talking to from a protest martial for talking about Israel who just dragged the US into a world war. And if that's the case it's really a controlled opposition, release valve type thing, which fills a void that would otherwise be filled by organic opposition and funnels it into the democratic party.

Now, even if it is a corpo psyop like that, masses of people are more powerful than careerist staffers, and so it might still be with it to participate in order to push working class interests. That No Kings Organizers seem to anticipate this left-opposition and pre-emptively act against it -- i.e. actual democracy and popular participation -- that's a bad sign
Show threadvery normal person8h ago
@liferstate @maxleibman

and i don't want to be mean and discourage people from participating --I'm gonna check it out and meet some people, looks like there's a location that's a bit more accessible -- but really can we stop this naivete about the non-profit industrial complex, this pathological punching left that the dems are addicted to is not helpful
Show threadliferstate8h ago

@mook I can assure you that PSL will be there, no matter where your No Kings protest is.

@maxleibman

Show threadvery normal person8h ago
@liferstate haha, ya know, PSL's ground game is impressive ngl

I'm sure there are a lot of local groups involved that are doing great work, no doubt Detroit knows how to get down

I think it's fair to call out the cynacle apathy of a lot of leftists who don't bother showing up at all, but there's a difference between that are disregarding legit criticism, and i'm very tired of this habitual punching left, but like I said if it's possible to use No Kings as a vehicle for local organizing the it's worth it

@maxleibman
Show threadliferstate7h ago
@mook I have a more jaundiced opinion. I think PSL is the left's premier astroturfing group (not as bad as the RevComs, but *nobody* is as bad as the RevComs for astroturfing). They love showing up with signs for other people to carry. But when it comes to sustained work in the wider community that doesn't revolve around them— they're gone.
@maxleibman
Show threadvery normal person7h ago
@liferstate i totally agree

From what i've seen, they have a symbiotic relationship with the non-profit industrial complex, where they show up to events organized by NGOs with signs and megaphones and spout all this radical sounding gibberish and leave people confused while patting themselves on the back

I suspect they are at least partly the result of cointelpro: an ineffectual self-cannibalizing cult that recruits naive radicals and burns them out, regardless it's the same result.

@maxleibman
Show threadliferstate8h ago
@mook I assure you No Kings rallies are kind of a catch-all. For weird inter-org reasons Detroit has 3 separate rallies at 3 locations, focusing on different issues, sponsored by a patchwork of local orgs. But they all coordinated to set the rallies at different times of day & made it known via the press that they weren't competing with each other, they were simply working in different ways. This is not something you'd see with a top-down org.
@maxleibman
Show threadliferstate8h ago

@mook Indivisible doesn't set any agenda. It's all local. Lots of orgs come out and table, or hand out literature, or circulate petitions. If you hate the Dems, I promise you will meet many other people who also hate the Dems. At least that's my experience in Detroit.

As for labor organizing, for that you need to be connected with a union. Some prominent ones are the Teamsters, UAW, SEIU, UFCW, AFT, SAG-AFTRA, WGA, UFW.

@maxleibman

Show threadvery normal person7h ago
@liferstate

i'll be out there, we'll see how it goes

i would I say in this context that I oppose the Democratic Establishment and it's corporate backers, and if we want to depose the trump regime and begin to undue the damage they've done, it's not enough to just vote dem, but to get democrats who are not beholden to lobbyists and are willing to fight for the working class. I think if that happened, the Dems would win big. I don't think this is a fringe perspective.

The union situation is the State of Florida is very very different from Michigan with it's long standing institutional unions. The old unions have had a very hard time gaining a foot-hold in the Deep South, and I think we need to be creative and form new orgs or adopt new strategies.

Again I see what you mean about unions having specific specialized tasks, I'm sure you're more knowledgeable about that, but I don't see the union struggle as strictly separate, when you have strong unions, that's also an electoral base, and narrowly 'political' mobilizations have a role to play in getting workers unionized.

@maxleibman
Show threadliferstate9h ago

@maxleibman The Venn diagram of this and "person who does not know even a single union member" is a circle.

Seriously if you want a general strike you need, *at a minimum,* 3-5 major national unions on board. E.g. the leadership of the Teamsters, UAW, SEIU, UFCW, the teachers, nurses, flight attendants etc. There's a tremendous amount of behind the scenes coordination required. "Just don't go to work on day X" is not a strike. A strike is a focused action with a defined goal.

Show threadChris Alemany9h ago
@liferstate @maxleibman I do hope people are working on that because the no Kings performances are useless.
Show threadBryan Veal9h ago
@chris @liferstate @maxleibman We really do take the shortest path to irony around here.
Show threadliferstate8h ago
@chris @maxleibman I tell you, man, I have really had it with people from outside the US lecturing about what forms of protest are and are not worthwhile. Just accept that there's more happening here than is visible to your social circles and international news media and move on.
Show threadChris Alemany24m ago

@liferstate @maxleibman if your President wasn't ruining the entire world including threatening to invade and ruin mine, perhaps I would not say anything.

Unfortunately that is very much not the case and I will never understand why Americans are not deposing the guy

Show threadAskold6h ago
@maxleibman hello hi im from Ukraine haaaiii heeeelllo priviit :)))
Show threadcontrasocial5h ago

@maxleibman

Sure, it's hypocritical in this hypothetical scenario that's been setup, but still not strictly wrong.

By all means go to NoKings if you're involved in nothing, but it's important not to confuse it with effective action in and of itself. Our labor is where our real power lies, and if something is not funneling people towards ways to organize that then it's of limited use in creating lasting reform. Not of no use at all, but limited.

Show threadTayFoNay, Sigh-D5h ago

@maxleibman The Louis CK problem aside, this song often comes to mind

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDydKwmrHFo&feature=youtu.be

Thank You, Scott - SNL

YouTube
Show threadSpread The Truth3h ago
@maxleibman I strongly dislike that I am seeing people trying to talk us out of the no Kings March not that it will deter me because all forms of protest are important and this one is gaining momentum all the time