SilentStrikerWould you accept the draft if your country decided to reinstate it?
qyronIn short: I’d refuse, oppose it and campaign against it.
I owe politians nothing. The rethoric about patriotism, duty and all the other arguments commonly used to carry forward pro-draft, pro-defense, pro-rearmament, etc, are hollow.
There are bad actors in this world but politians still confuse public office with unbridled authority and people allow for it like sheep.
Draft as been talked about in my country (Portugal) a few years back, by people that never served as military, from a “conservative” sector of society, using arguments gravitating about ingraining “values” about patriotism, discipline and sacrifice to the younger generations.
Translation: you are to be braiwashed, forced to obey, never question and die where and when ordered.
I risk most will defend their home and family at the risk of cost of their health and life if a bad actor arises. But that in no way leads to the logic for need of a standing army.
Peace is peace. Armed peace is a veiled threat.
I’m hypothetically in favor of abolishing war machines as well, but this can only be achieved if workers organize internationally to overthrow their and every other state everywhere in the world simultaneously. States are literally war machines funded by taxes; everything else they do is done to the extent it helps pacify the people who’d otherwise organize themselves and rise against borders, conscription and being governed rather than governing ourselves. I also understand that fighting against states will probably be comparable to a war in terms of bloodiness and chaos, and will have to repeat whenever a new gang appears and tries to become a state.
I don’t think collective agreements to de-arm internationally would need every state to be overthrown. It just needs more democracies, more stability and the insight that everyone profits from long-term peace. But the level of cooperation needed would just be unmatched. Its much easier for one actor to arm and then every neighbor needs to follow suit
I strongly agree about an unmatched level of cooperation being urgently needed for feats like slowing down climate change, but disagree that states are the type of organization required to even imagine it. Every state in history is exactly that, an armed actor, a gang who has militarily forced its way through enough territory to do protection racket over entire peoples. Gangs might introduce democratic elements (parliament, constitution) for efficiency and to calm down those people whom they don’t yet have the potential to repress. Gangs might recruit local population to sustain their numbers or provide skills and knowledge. Gangs might provide a few socially welcome policies in the territories they control, as long as they’re in charge of the provision and haven’t found a way to survive while avoiding them altogether. Gangs might call a truce and maintain it for many years while they’re fighting a bigger, more powerful gang. Some gangs have sold away a part of their weapons and instead rely on protection from neighbor gangs with more impressive arsenals. They’re still gangs, self-sustaining machines of violence, organized armed actors deontologically doomed to set the world on fire, precisely because if one armed actor decides to do good, other armed actors will eat him alive.
Thats a really negative interpretation of what a state is. I think many people benefit from the state having a monopoly on violence in democratic countries with strong protection for minorities. If the state didn’t exist the minorities would have to protect themselves. If there was no state groups would emerge instantly and minorities and the disabled would be at threat for the despotism of the masses. I’m happy there is the police I can call when someone is infringing on my rights or that there is a system of courts. But this is more of a philosophical argument than anything else
The existing protections for minorities, if we trace them to Stonewall and the Civil rights movement, are won by minorities organizing self-defense and causing enough ruckus when discriminated that the state starts worrying about its monopoly on violence. Then, when the state, against the discrimination by which the minorities have successfully organized, has a cultural and economic hegemony, the won rights slowly “trickle down” to some (but not all) of its allies, but are quickly rolled back at a whim when their leadership changes if there’s no functioning self-defense remaining and widely supported.
It’s very important not to disband the self-defense after any concession, and to organize it even, especially, when achieved peacefully. I’m from an Eastern European country where LGBT people don’t currently have self-defense, instead trusting the police and NGOs who started promising them protection because European integration requires that. Their promise is an utter lie; there are hundreds of attacks by boneheads (who are not the masses, but rather an extension of the state’s arm of violence) every year and the police does next to nothing, with the NGOs urging the attacked people and their friends to limit themselves to petitioning their representatives, who also do nothing.
What I’m trying to say is, the minorities have to protect themselves whether the state exists or not, and where the state exists, the defense has largely to be targeted against the state discrimination, the police violence, and the religious and press propaganda supported by the state. Once a group is able to protect themselves and their friends, it starts being respected by the majority of the people, so the despotism of the masses is not a threat, unlike the states, who have illegalized and then starved or otherwise killed minorities en masse numerous times. There are states where the situation is at the moment better, but that’s in such contrast to what states in general have done in the past that I can’t help but realize that the protections are temporary and under threat of a rollback at any moment.
This seems to be more of a gripe with your government honestly. I was speaking about countries with strong protection for minorities. I still think its better to have some protection than to have to fend for yourself again the masses. I definitely reject anarchy from an ideological standpoint. I get the appeal but don’t think things would be better for most people. I have gripes with many things regarding politics but I still stand behind that for the number of people we have the state is also needed from an organizational standpoint to apply rules for all, even if that not always happens perfectly. Orderly society wouldn’t exist in the same way without it
I understand your position, despite disagreeing with it, as it was once mine as well. Would you mind answering two questions on a related, but different topic, closer to OP? First, when a more authoritarian party comes to rule in your country, are you confident they’ll keep conscription more-or-less volunteer, or will one of the first things they do, besides stripping minority rights, be making refusal punishable, canceling alternative service options, widening the recruitment age range and making most people with disabilities not “serious” enough serve as well? Second, since the war on Europe has been ongoing for twelve years, why wait until your country is invaded, and not go here to help defend so that it doesn’t get to the point when your state or a neighboring state of yours is invaded?
For Question 1: I believe there is the possibility for them to try. Technically our constitution says that you’re able to be refuse service (I’m german). But they could certainly try to move against the law. In this position if things got really bad I’d probably try to leave my country.
For Question 2: I would not wait for my country to be invaded. I would not go to a foreign country by myself without like being drafted and sent by my country. I certainly stated before that I would defend my country, and if I served the EU and NATO. But before the 2022 with the Russian attack barely anyone knew or talked about Ukraine. In that regard I do wish to help them with more military aid but I’m not willing to fight myself for Ukraine. If a war from Russia with NATO were to happen I would at least have my country and the entire alliance behind me making strong war efforts to fend of Russia, whereas now the aid is in part slowly and reluctantly sent. I’m not as willing to risk my life for Ukraine as I am for my country or even the EU directly. I certainly think arming to be able to defend makes sense but I don’t think Russia will go immediately attack NATO once the war with Ukraine ends and in a direct confrontation I don’t think Russia would outperform NATO, as economically Russia is no match. I don’t know where I’m going or if I lost my red thread. I don’t want to die but I’m willing to put up a fight and take a risk if I feel threatened enough. The fact is european leaders keep saying “the fate of ukraine is the fate of europe”. I don’t believe that to be fully true. When the war started washington offered to evacuate Zelensky, not send arms. Europe is on the side of Ukraine, but a partial Ukrainian loss will not mean the end for the EU and our collective freedom, even if it was a dark overcast. Many expected Ukraine to fall in the early days of the war. So I guess I can say I would do the task to serve if I was drafted as a duty, I would maybe serve in peace time and fight when demanded of me or serve to rather fight than die as civilian casualty if my side had a legit reason to fight and was not the aggressor or fighting a random war overseas. But I’m not willing to go to a foreign country to volunteer as the brutality of war is very much apparent for me. Even if the fate of Ukraine matters for Europe, the EU will not automatically crumble with it and a partial loss for Ukraine is more problematic for Ukraine than for the EU.
Thanks for a detailed response. It feels weird that in a globalized world an attack on a people isn’t felt by others as an attack on someone they know, with whom they or their friends directly talk online, whose loss would personally affect their projects and friend circles. I admit I also don’t know many names from African countries, for example, or from Palestine, or even from some EU regions. Inequality of recognition and, as a consequence, a lack of personally felt solidarity, is definitely a weakness of the world-system we live in; well, not for the system itself but for the invaded peoples.
I feel strong solidarity, just not to the extent for where I would put my own life on the line is the sad reality. I’m not eager to fight and risk life in war I guess but would do so if I felt it was my duty. You know you wouldn’t cry really if you heard some stranger die as if your own relatives were affected from. The world would be a lot better if we cared more about the suffering we cause on others in the world inadvertently. Like how often do the news talk about war and suffering in Sudan compared to other more economically important regions (straight of hormus)