Mastodawn

maxine 🇵🇸

Time for a new falsehoods list. An adult must have some form of ID. An adult must have a driver’s license. An adult has a credit card. An adult has a credit card issued in their country of residence. The account region and issuance region of any form of identification match. Etc.

It’s hard to believe that no US tech company has a single immigrant in their entire product org.

@maxine to be honest this is a major failure mode for the Netherlands as well, practically all services want you to pay with iDEAL which is exclusively a thing done by Dutch banks which want you to be registered with the municipality which requires having a rental which might require iDEAL.

We ended up having to get a temporary eSIM to register with the bank

@maxine well that and we couldn't setup a bank account until being there because of the registration needed to get your initial BSN (citizen number) so ultimately we had our work pay on our behalf

@Lunaphied Germany also has a similar problem - to get a bank account you need an Anmeldung but how the fuck are you getting an Anmeldung if you don’t have any means to rent. It’s an absolute crime how much of our existence is tied purely to having a financial identity.

@maxine yeah at least I've had an IBAN through Wise but if I'd gotten arbitrarily banned as American Not A Bank Banks are want to do I'd be out of luck

@Lunaphied this is indeed one of the few things n26 “disrupted”, made relocations into Germany way easier

Jan Lehnardt

23h ago

@maxine heh, the majority of folks that I know work there are immigrants, including US to DE and Non-US to Non-US. What a cluster.

@janl Oh yeah I mean between that and the very special tech visas. It’s what makes this so much dumber.

@maxine looooots of Americans genuinely believe that these things are true. The voter ID people constantly are like "it's common sense" because they happen to have a driver's license and consider it obvious and basic. That being said traditionally credit cards are the one way to semireasonably verify adulthood without exposing massive PII issues. The fact that the current push wants more is how you know it's not about anything serious

@Lunaphied I am the only person in my entire biological family with a cc, and that’s only because bunq uses ccs for their virtual cards. My extremely retirement age parents would have no means of verifying their age despite getting a pension under this implementation.

I don’t know that there’s a good way to privacy preserving age verification, but I think the fundamental problem is there are no good ways to even ensure everyone can.

@maxine technically bunq has debit virtual cards I had one but it made more sense to just add the physical cards to Apple Wallet so I didn't have to pay extra lol. Same digital security though

That being said much of the western world (outside the weird place that is Germany) has shifted to CC (or rather debit cards backed by CC networks which is kinda the same thing tbh. idk why bunq offer both credit and debit cards for debit accounts).

It'd be very very unpleasant to operate in modern life without them hence the requirements for free basic banking here. Though I'm not sure how edge cases like people getting banned by all the banks for fraud are handled.

Definitely agree on the age verification point but I more was thinking like traditionally this was considered Good Enough for porn and the like. The fact that they want to bake it into everything is just obviously wrong given how much the status quo has been well. Fine.

artemist 21h ago

@Lunaphied @maxine debit cards backed by credit card networks are still different than credit cards, since they have different fee requirements. in the eu the credit card interchange fee cap is 0.2% and 0.3% for debit and credit cards respectively. in the us there is a cap of $0.22+0.05% for most debit cards, and none for credit cards.

Erin 💽✨20h ago

@artemist @Lunaphied @maxine bunq told me (in an email CCed to BaFin) that their fake credit cards are actually at debit interchange rates but I don't think this is actually true...

... Also they don't work for age verification in a bunch of places because they know they're fake lol

Lunaphied 13h ago

@artemist @erincandescent @maxine those are for their actual "credit" product though not their normal debit/credit card issuing afaik?

Because I was simply talking about normal debit, places like ING also let you decide if you want a debit or "credit" type card to access your account iirc.

These definitely aren't actually processed as credit though, they might be backed by the credit processing but debit stuff takes a different path. This works differently in the US versus Europe though. In any case when I said credit card networks I meant networks run by credit card processors which includes debit networks.

Idk why bunq cards wouldn't work for age verification even if they're "fake" they still share the property of being attached to an account requiring an adult to open it

artemist 21h ago

@maxine @Lunaphied meanwhile, in the us i knew several people who had credit cards as children (as authorized users)

maxine 🇵🇸21h ago

@artemist @Lunaphied that might be the most unhealthy sentence I have ever read

William B Peckham 19h ago

@maxine Actually a child in the USA foes not need any card. They MIGHT have one, but none are required. If an adult does not drive, uses only cash and has no bank or credit account, does not register to vote, and works for themselves, they may have no cards whatever. (I know some examples, although it is rare.) Is this not possible in other countries?

@maxine also depending on region, a drivers license is not valid ID

@4censord @maxine wait what

@ielenia @maxine why would it?
You have your photo-id anyways right
It just proves that $name is allowed to drive, not that you are $name

@4censord @maxine ...why carry the redundant ID?

what places even have drivers licenses that aren't ids?

if anything its more why would it not, it does seem redundant to need both, not to mention the extra cost

@4censord @maxine my driver license proves that I am $name and that I am allowed to drive - it's possible (and seemingly practical) to simply combine them

@ielenia @maxine well, there is other requirements for I'd that for drivers license
If the default is "persons doesnt have a drivers license" then using them as ID is not worth it at all
Like
In my friend group I am one of two in a group of like 20 that has a driving license

Everyone just has a photo ID anyways, having the license be ID is just not worth the extra cost ID documents have

@4censord @maxine I guess....

idk its just hard for me to imagine something as important as a driver license not also having enough info to function as a photo id

@ielenia @maxine I mean it has enough to mostly prove you are yourself
Its just not photoid and doesnt have any of the other features of photoid, like a mrz or the digital features

@4censord @maxine oh, you have a stricter definition of photo id then

by your definition most driver('s) licenses and state-issued ids also wouldnt be photo ids....

luna the doggie

@ielenia @4censord @maxine the driver's license has a photo, full name, date of birth and PESEL here but I don't think anyone accepts it as a valid ID

Technically I think you're also legally required to carry an ID on you as an adult.

Getting an ID is both free and mandatory, and it's valid for 10 years IIRC.

@lunareclipse @4censord @maxine

why does it have all that if its not a valid ID

@lunareclipse @4censord @maxine the (north) american mind cannot comprehend

@ielenia @lunareclipse @maxine well,
You dont need to ID yourself on a traffic stop
You just need to show thst you are allowed to drive.

luna the doggie

12h ago

@4censord @ielenia @maxine technically speaking in Poland, you can also ID yourself onn a traffic stop instead, and the cops will look you up in a database instead of looking at a physical document. This doesn't work as well if you're in an area with bad reception.

:now: at kubecon!12h ago

@lunareclipse @maxine @ielenia I think this is true in Germany as well