BeepOptical illusion
flyingSockwhere is switzerland? on the chart, this often gets touted as the counterpoint
lime!next to germany between Portugal and Canada. according to small arms survey, which supplied the data, switzerland has about 25 guns per 100 people and .5 deaths per 100k people.
Total homicides, total deaths, firearm homicides, or firearm deaths? Because the graph in the comic is intentionally misleading that way.
So mostly suicides then
donât think so actually, have a look.
On this chart Norway would also be listed with 29 guns per person. These are owned by only 10% of the population however, and automatic rifles are banned for civilians. I donât disagree with the sentiment of this meme, but itâs cherry picking data in exactly the same manner as âthe other sideâ would do just for a cheap gotcha argument.
I think carrying the guns around plays a big role too
These are owned by only 10% of the population however
Thats the case in America too, iirc like 30% of households have at least 1 gun, and if you assume 4 people per household, and 1.25 gun per American, that means the average gun-owning household has 16 guns.
It makes a lot of sense to own more than one gun. For self defense you might own one shotgun, one handgun, and a smaller handgun for concealed carry. If youâre a hunter, you likely want two rifles in different calibers, a shotgun, and a hand gun. In addition to that you might have an old gun laying around or grandpaâs old hunting gun, a range toy, some historic gun you like for some reason. Sport target shooters will have a few different guns, depending on what disciplines they shoot. Then there are also more serious collectors who might have dozens or hundreds of different firearms.
Yes. Whatâs the point of owning a firearm if you canât have a gun for when youâre sleeping in your bedroom, a gun when youâre on the toilet, a gun when youâre on the couch watching the TV, a gun when youâre at the front door greeting guests, a gun when youâre driving your F150, a gun for that second amendment right, a gun when you go grocery shopping, a gun when you go buying clothes, a gun to go with your Tony Montana cosplay and you know, a gun just for fun. What are you supposed to do? Go outside without a gun? Use one gun for all those things? Donât you know switching to your sidearm is always faster than reloading?
You donât need all those guns. You want all those guns.
SalamenceFuryWho are you to tell how many of those someone needs? If someone isnât a murderous psychopath it does not matter how many guns they have cause exactly none of them will be used on a person.
Letâs me rephrase it then. You can want to have all those guns but itâs not sensible to have all those guns.
The argument here is that itâs sensible to have so many guns. Itâs not sensible because even among Americans the median gun owner owns 2 guns. You donât need a shotgun, a handgun, a concealed carry gun and a whole other set of guns for hunting and whole other set of guns for the shooting range etc. That is not sensible, that is just someone wanting a whole lot of guns.
The Stock and Flow of U.S. Firearms: Results from the 2015 National Firearms Survey
Since the mid-1990s, the U.S. civilian gun stock has grown from approximately 192 million (65 million handguns) to approximately 265 million (113 million handguns). In 2015, gun owners owned more weapons and were more likely to own both handguns and long guns than in 1994. As in 1994, ownership in 2015 was highly concentrated: the median owner owned two, but the 8 percent of all owners who owned ten or more accounted for 39 percent of the stock. Approximately seventy million firearms changed hands within the past five years (from 2011 to 2015); most were purchased. Two and a half percent of Americans had guns stolen within the past five years, accounting for an estimated five hundred thousand guns per year.
TBH if youâre a hunter you DO need different guns, because a gun for deer is overkill for something like wolves/boars but mostly useless against something like a bear. But aside from that, if I did live in the US I would be a collector, but the only guns Iâd seriously plan to buy brand new would be a carry pistol, a shotgun, and a rifle.
BuelldozerYou donât need a shotgun, a handgun, a concealed carry gun and a whole other set of guns for hunting and whole other set of guns for the shooting range etc. That is not sensible, that is just someone wanting a whole lot of guns.
What you described in the first sentence is entirely reasonable, you just donât understand it.
Hereâs an evaluation based strictly on cost.
My hunting rifles cost something like $2 per round or more to fire. If I want to go to the range and practice technique firing 50 to 100 times is normal. This is a cost of $100 to $200 dollars.
My plinking, or training, rifles on the other have a cost of about 4 cents per round to fire. So now a practice day at the range is below $5.
However I cannot hunt with a training rifle, itâs caliber is far too small.
Itâs the same with shotguns and handguns. The heavier ones are necessary for real activities but they cost a lot to train with. The smaller caliber ones are much less expensive to train with but arenât useful for real work.
What you are missing, IMO, is that firearms are tools and people who use their tools tend to own more than one of each.
Yeah, I totally use my training hammer to be prepared to use my real hammer when the time is right. I also have a set of training screw drivers to be prepared when I need to take my computer apart for cleaning. And to be proficient with the air canister I have a training canister.
I get it, you like to shoot and if you shoot a lot you want to make it cheap and itâs cheaper to shoot small bullets because theyâre cheaper. But most gun owners are not hunters nor do they go regularly shooting. Your individual experience may be sensible for your specific scenario, but itâs not sensible for the vast majority of gun owners. It might be sensible for a BSDM practitioner to build a sex dungeon, it doesnât mean a sex dungeon is sensible for everyone having sex.
Yeah, I totally use my training hammer to be prepared to use my real hammer when the time is right. I also have a set of training screw drivers to be prepared when I need to take my computer apart for cleaning. And to be proficient with the air canister I have a training canister.
I have hammers for driving nails, 12 shaped hammers for doing body work, rubber hammers (mallets) for banging on softer materials, and 4 different sledge hammers weighing between 3lbs and 50lbs. I also have screw drivers in sizes from itty bitty eyeglass / watch to computer to jumbo. I also have air canisters, a 3 gallon pancake air compressor, and 50 gallon shop sized air compressor. You use the correct tool in the correct way to accomplish the job. Your attempt at making a false equivalence is rejected.
Your individual experience may be sensible for your specific scenario, but itâs not sensible for the vast majority of gun owners.
So in the first half of that sentence you admit your own argument is false, or at least not universally true. It IS sensible for at least some gun owners to have different firearms for different purposes. As for the 2nd half you do realize that there are between 15 and 16 million hunters in the United States, right? This is not a small number of people.
It might be sensible for a BSDM practitioner to build a sex dungeon, it doesnât mean a sex dungeon is sensible for everyone having sex.
Okay first off, false equivalence again and secondâŚwhatâs wrong with sex dungeon? Theyâre pretty easy to build if you have the right tools. :)
Edit: In case itâs not clear Iâm approaching this as a semi-friendly conversation.
I have hammers for driving nails, 12 shaped hammers for doing body work, rubber hammers (mallets) for banging on softer materials, and 4 different sledge hammers weighing between 3lbs and 50lbs. I also have screw drivers in sizes from itty bitty eyeglass / watch to computer to jumbo. I also have air canisters, a 3 gallon pancake air compressor, and 50 gallon shop sized air compressor. You use the correct tool in the correct way to accomplish the job. Your attempt at making a false equivalence is rejected.
Arenât you missing your analogy of getting a separate tool just to train? I too have different hammers for different jobs, but I donât have an extra set of hammers just because I love hammering so much and neither do you.
So in the first half of that sentence you admit your own argument is false, or at least not universally true. It IS sensible for at least some gun owners to have different firearms for different purposes.
No, because what is sensible for the individual might not be sensible for a group of people and what might be sensible for a small group of people might not be sensible for the larger group. If we take your argument, which is that what is sensible for one is sensible for all then it should be sensible for everyone to spend a few grand on setting up a home server to have all the services big tech provides at your home so your data is actually yours. So why isnât everyone doing âthe sensibleâ thing? Because for most people itâs not sensible because they donât have the technical know-how how to set something like that up, they donât care to keep it running, they donât care to backup their data and they donât care to spend money on something they feel they donât need.
As for the 2nd half you do realize that there are between 15 and 16 million hunters in the United States, right? This is not a small number of people.
Do you really want to go down the statistics route? For starters, 16 million is less than 5% of the American population. I couldnât find a credible number of gun owners but that percentage would be bound to go up significantly considering how marginal it is for the entire American population Iâll give you that. But thereâs a caveat and thatâs hunting itself. By far the most popular game to hunt is deer, which is about half of all the hunts, and a third of the hunters donât even use a modern firearm. So not only does that 16 million drop to 10-11 million hunters with modern firearms, half of them are getting by with just a single hunting rifle. Now for the multiple game hunters weâre below 2% of the entire American population and thatâs under the assumption that the whole 100% of people within that 2% regularly hit the shooting range to justify owning a separate set of firearms.
Okay first off, false equivalence again and secondâŚwhatâs wrong with sex dungeon? Theyâre pretty easy to build if you have the right tools. :)
I didnât say thereâs anything wrong with a sex dungeon. I said that despite it being sensible for someone practicing BDSM itâs not sensible for the vast majority of people for the similar reason everyone doesnât have a home server, they donât know how to set it up, they donât have the space to set it up, they donât want to maintain it and they donât want to spend money on it when they can just use the bed/couch/floor/whatever. What might be sensible for a BDSM practitioner is not sensible for everyone having sex.
Very true. People have all kinds of stuff they donât actually need, but just like having.
Iâm not sure the number of guns someone owns makes a difference regarding public safety and gun crime.
I support stricter gun laws in the US, registered ownership, some kind of license, sales only through licenses dealers, restricted advertising, waiting times, safe storage requirements, etc. A lot of gun regulations in the US are not very effective and more symbolic. Bothering legal owners more doesnât necessarily help with violent crimes using firearms.
Fundamentally the main reasons for gun crime are social and can improved without changing gun regulations.
Any kind of registration of ANYTHING in the US is a bad idea. Especially at a time where the federal government is openly genocidal towards certain minorities, especially trans people. Having a list of trans people who own guns would be free eats for them if they declared every single one a terrorist or enemy of the state.
A valid concern.
A gun registry wouldnât list if people are trans or not though. A list of trans people you would get through healthcare and insurance. Changes of a legal name is probably registered somewhere as well. So they would need to cross reference.
If they want to go after trans people individually, they would go for leaders and activists first. They are easily found on social media nowadays. Then go after organized groups.
An individual armed trans person is much less of a concern, than organized groups armed or not.
If there were to be a registry it would have to be in a way that it does not associate a personâs face with their ownership, it should be a token that only points that the gun is legal to own.
Interesting idea
I agree. The main reasons for crime are social and in America that should definitely be improved upon, but have you asked why specifically gun related crimes are so high compared to letâs say knife-related crimes? Because in Europe itâs probably the opposite, knife-related crimes are higher than gun-related crimes.
Yes, easy gun availability makes gun crime more likely. If you think your victim might have a gun, you want to use a gun to rob them. Knives are very deadly weapons as well and very hard to regulate.
In many European countries itâs easier to get a gun illegally than legally.
skulblakaOn this chart Norway would also be listed with 29 guns per person. These are owned by only 10% of the population however
Wait, so youâre saying the average Norwegian gun owner owns 290 guns? That sounds very implausible.
Yeah, the numbers seem wild to me. I live in Norway. I have family who lives up north among polar bears, so they have gun for bear protection. My in-laws do some hunting, so they have a few hunting rifles. I feel like my family and in-laws are far above the regular citizens when it comes to gun count per person, but it still averages to around 0.5 guns per person among us. I donât know anyone in Norway who owns a gun to defend against other humans. Who are these 10%?
Czechia and Austria are also worth putting on this chart.
Switzerland distributes a lot of firearms, particularly through their mandatory military service. But Switzerland also very tightly controls the supply of ammunition for all of those firearms they issue.
hubobesHold up. The US has over 100 guns per 100 people? đł So on average, everyone owns at least one gun?
Close, but the best estimates are there are 470 million guns in US civilian hands. With a population of 338 million, youâre looking at approximately 1.4 guns per person in this crazy land of free-dumb. đ
If it makes you feel better, most gun owners own many guns, so there isnât actually a gun in everyoneâs hands.
Just a lot of them in a few hands⌠Much betterâŚ
Some people are collectors, but a lot of people just have some old guns around.
Also if guns are a hobby or interest of yours, you are likely to own several. Just like people who are into headphones, mechanical keyboards, vintage gaming consoles, bicycles, etc.
Just like people who are into sarin, questionably stored viral samples, bombs, gillotines, etc.
You can call these things âcollectablesâ but their nature doesnât change because you put a friendly term to it. It is psychologically fucked up to stockpile lethal weapons that can only be used for taking life without even having a practical application in mind.
starman2112Iâm going to push back a little bit. For one thing, have you ever gone hunting? Some would say that taking life (specifically deers and rabbits and stuff) is a practical application. For two, sport shooting is a thing. Being good at using a weapon can be rewarding in and of itself, whether youâre talking about guns, bows, slingshots, or throwing knives.
I was about to compare it to telescopes. Most people donât have one, most people who have one only have one, but a few of us have upwards of five
That dude would have been shot so damn quickly in Texas.
Most gun owners have more than one. If youâre a hunter, you might want to shoot different rounds for different game or seasons.
My state bans the use of rifles for deer hunting in most circumstances. In that example, youâd want 12ga for deer hunting, 20ga for duck, and 5.56 would be used for coyotes, boar, or groundhogs. And if you go boar hunting youâll want a sidearm (9mm or .45) because theyâll gore you if they get the chance.
So that totals 4 guns for a single person with decent reasoning. Plus, if you had kids and took them hunting, youâd want at least 1 more of each type.
And for people who live in non-rural areas, you might decide to concealed carry a 9mm for protection. But handguns arenât as ideal for home defense, so you might want a shotgun or 9mm carbine for that task, so thatâd be 2 guns for 1 person.
Close, but the best estimates are there are 470 million guns in US civilian hands.
Thatâs the the lower boundary. The real number is probably closer to a billion.
You have to remember that untold millions of firearms were sold before anyone really started keeping track, no federal authority was keeping track before 1968ish, and that firearms will easily last a century if they are not fired too often and given even a minimum amount of care.
I myself inherited several pre-'68 firearms that would never have been counted. My 90 year old father in law has a dozen or more that he inherited or bought (western ranching family) that are still functional despite being manufactured over a century ago!
To put a fine point on the issue; into the 1970âs you could buy firearms off the shelf at hardware stores or even CoD via mail order. 470 million is a low number.
Good news: you can read a chart correctly!
Bad news: It seems that there are approximately 120 civilian owned firearms per 100 persons in the USA: 2017 survey. See particularly the âEstimating Global Civilian-held Firearms Numbersâ briefing paper and its annex. That seems to be the survey that most reports are based on. I donât imagine the number has dropped over the interveneing years.
Knowing the people I know, I bet thatâs much higher now!
Itâs that the people who own guns tend to own gunnnsssss. Like an entire arsenal. Most people donât own any.
Around 40% in the USA own at least one firearm. Itâs probably higher now since trump is back in power.
That is higher than I thought, but still not most.
Think of it this way. The majority of our gun deaths are from suicides, then the next largest amount is from gang/drug violence, after that itâs police (on average 1k a year) then itâs the rest. Meaning that around 4k deaths a year are from literally everything else (domestic/robberies/random acts). We donât really have a gun problem, we have an issue with our society. 99.99999999% of all firearms in civ hands have never been used to harm another person.
Poverty creates the violence, lack of education, lack of social support, lack of opportunities, lack of healthcare. If we fixed those things, our guns violence would plummet overnight. But the owners of this country would rather have us fighting each other than them.
Do remember that we have no registry, which means that number is self reported and itâs just a educated guess. Myself and many others buy private sales. Iâve never purchased from a FFL or online. Everything I own is purchased from private owners in my state. I donât fall into that 40%. With trump in power, many new owners are buying locally as well and many on the left are now armed.
Some of us put ownership around 50% at this point.
bdonvr