洪 民憙 (Hong Minhee) 4d ago

An interview with @thisismissem from @APC: FediMod FIRES on building better and decentralised social media applications (by @XavCC).

Probably the biggest thing that I’ve learned over the years of the Fediverse is that it depends almost entirely on volunteer labour. There are a few people that are paid full time to work on the Fediverse. But to actually get the things that you need, it very much largely depends on volunteer labour, because projects are either chasing funding through grants or they're chasing funding through their nations. And those demands can often be at odds with what people overall need or want.

So that's probably the biggest learning from the Fediverse that I have: a lot of it is just run and funded by individuals and volunteers, which often means that it doesn't move as fast as more commercial operations.

Show threadmarius4d ago

> And those demands can often be at odds with what people overall need or want.

@hongminhee and here
I was thinking that having corporatized projects chasing investment returns is the thing that brings the wrong incentives to the development of social media. As it is daily reminded to us by Facebook and Co.

I'm going to speak my mind about this:
@thisismissem has sold out.

@APC @XavCC

Show thread洪 民憙 (Hong Minhee) 4d ago
@mariusor Speaking as someone who knows her personally, it's hard to judge when I know how much of it came down to survival rather than principle. And the fact that she kept working on standards that benefit both ecosystems through all of that reads more like holding on than selling out, to me.
Show threadmarius4d ago

@hongminhee framing the discrepancy between volunteer driven vs capitalist interests driven projects in favour of the capitalists speaks very clearly to me.

In the current market where capitalist efforts have become in large part LLM driven, it's out right disrespectful to imply that moving fast is somehow better than doing things right.

(Granted that volunteer development doesn't guarantee it either, but in my opinion has a more authentic chance)

Show thread洪 民憙 (Hong Minhee) 4d ago
@mariusor I don't disagree with the broader point, but I think there's a difference between a project being captured by capitalist interests and a person finding a way to keep the lights on. She wasn't funding a startup, she was paying rent. The authenticity you're describing is a real thing, but it's a lot easier to hold onto when you're not watching your savings disappear.
Show threadJeff4d ago

@hongminhee @mariusor I have followed Emelia's work closely. I assure you she has attempted to sustain herself on work for the fediverse.

She has a desire to do good, even to her detriment financially and physically. I respect that spirit, but fret the implications. I was happy to see this opportunity for her.

The same is true for any fedi developer I've followed and supported as much as I could. There are many in the same position I'm afraid, or close to it.

Your accusations don't help.

Show threadmarius4d ago

@box464 it's not an accusation. It's an observation, and I accept that it might be wrong.

And I'm happy to see people get paid for their meaningful work, but I am against speaking ill of people that invest personal time for the betterment of all.

I'm not commenting because she moved on from the fediverse, but because she's misrepresenting what people like me stand for while still doing work for it.

Speaking bad of your ex in public is not a good look. I don't mean to offend, and I hope I was respectful enough to not be under suspicion that this is some kind of baseless personal attack.

@hongminhee

Show threadEmelia 👸🏻

@mariusor @box464 @hongminhee If a project in the fediverse comes to me with money and a thing that they want to achieve, and I believe that I can deliver on it, then collaborations happen, but I can't work for free with little credit, that doesn't work in this capitalist society of ours.

Approximately 45% of my income goes to taxes and health insurance. And even that may be low as an estimate. As a freelancer I also have business expenses (bank accounts, software, tax advisor, legal, etc). Money needs to come from somewhere for all that.

Just the donations I receive make up 25% of what I actually need to earn in a year. The remaining 75% is grants and freelance work. That's just how the numbers breakdown.

Mar 24 at 1:21pmWeb
Show threadmarius4d ago

@thisismissem I don't want to turn this into a larger drama, and make it personal, but three years ago I asked for your support with the frontend part of one of my projects and you quoted me a VC level consulting fee. I'm just a guy in an attic, living out of his savings... just like you.

So, to me your words sound less true than I'm sure you mean them.

I wish you good luck with finding a way to sustain your livelihood that also doesn't compromise your principles, but please don't talk down on the people that still do work in the fediverse. There's more of us than the Mastodon team, and your words are harsh to all.

@box464 @hongminhee

Show threadEmelia 👸🏻4d ago

@mariusor @box464 @hongminhee you asked me my contracting rate, I said "my normal freelance rate is €100/hour, and I give discounts for non-profits and purely open source work" — I know what my work is worth.

If I happen to use your software, maybe I'll contribute out of the goodness of my heart, but I don't use your software, and at the time I really fucking needed money because I wasn't sure how I'd be paying my rent.

I'd used all my savings. I need paid work to survive. I think your problem is with capitalism, not with me trying to survive within it. If you've somehow savings that have lasted for 3 years, you're a fuck load wealthier than most of us.

I'm also not talking down to you. I'm saying we need to seriously fund what we want to see, a volunteer economy is paid by someone, in your case it sounds like you're savings. In my case it was initially my savings and then whatever extra money I had from freelancing.

Paying people for their work shouldn't be controversial, especially when we live under capitalism.

Show threadWren Reilly4d ago

@thisismissem @mariusor @box464 @hongminhee

$100 an hour is the minimum to pay taxes and healthcare costs and still have a pittance left over.

It’s not VC rates. It’s minimum wage for freelancers.

As kindly as possible: saying someone has sold out for asking for a reasonable wage is such an over-the-top response. Work out your feelings about that in an appropriate venue, not by lobbing accusations at someone putting in the time and effort to be a good community member.

Show threadmarius4d ago

@akareilly I agree with you, people deserve a living wage.
What they don't deserve, in my opinion, is expecting it from projects that are at the same level of poverty as they are.

As I keep repeating, my problem is not with what everyone's doing to pay the bills, but only with how the BSky vs. Fediverse distinction got framed once focus shifted.

Maybe I'm indeed wrong, and the remarks have nothing to do with who's paying the bills, but I still consider them in bad taste.

Show threadWren Reilly4d ago

@mariusor

So you approached someone and asked for something they couldn’t afford to give, correct?

This doesn’t mean that person is any less of a contributor to FLOSS.

No one is obligated to risk their housing, healthcare, or access to food for your open source project.

Show threadmarius4d ago

@thisismissem I agree with you. Your fee is your fee, I didn't argue with it then, and I'm not trying to do it now.

But I hope that you can see how your words can ring somewhat fake to someone that had that experience interacting with you. From my perspective you refused help and to help.

And my problem is not with you or the decisions about what you do to survive, but how you've framed the Fediverse vs at proto problem through a mercantilistic perspective.
Anyway, apologies for making this day a little shittier for you. :( I'll see myself out.

@box464 @hongminhee

Show threadEmelia 👸🏻4d ago

@mariusor @box464 @hongminhee the interview only mentions AT Protocol in three places:
1 & 2. framing what I do
3. saying that their community rallied behind me when I needed support this year.

I have never pitted AT Protocol vs ActivityPub, in fact, I even wrote a letter saying the opposite: https://writings.thisismissem.social/statement-on-discourse-about-activitypub-and-at-protocol/

Which was subsequently rejected by a few voices in the ActivityPub ecosystem so they could keep saying shitty things about other projects.

Statement on discourse about ActivityPub and AT Protocol

Foreword This statement was originally published on the swicg/general repository after I had been granted approval to merge. Since then one community member has raised that it did not follow the Community Group's processes, and consequently the document has been taken down from the original location. When publishing, I

Writings of Emelia