Mastodawn

Irony level: expert.

Idk why people keep thinking that pointing out this “hypocrisy” is clever. The current government is operating from an exceptionalist standpoint. Many people believe America is anointed by God, the agent of good and right. Others simply believe in the law of self-interest.

Either way, (I can feel the downvotes coming now), this isn’t really hypocritical behavior by any means. This is like criticizing a sports team: “Wait, so it’s good for YOU to get the ball in the basket, but it’s bad for THEM to get the ball in the basket?”. The people who approve of America’s behaviour do not see other countries and people as being on the same team, and while that may be stupid, it isn’t hypocritical. Imagine someone saying this about you with some instsnce of yourself being self-interested.

“Oh, so when you get a promotion it’s a reason to party, but when that lying asshole in your department gets the promotion instead of you, now suddenly you feel upset? Hypocrite!”

That’s not hypocrisy. That’s just you believing that you deserve the promotion and believing that the other guy doesn’t. Now, if you don’t actually deserve the promotion, that still makes you wrong, but not via hypocrisy.

Its important to understand this distinction because all these “hypocrisy” call outs from the left ring so hollow even to many people on the left, and they certainly won’t wake up or bother anyone on the right, because they’re fundamentally missing the point.

The problem isn’t that America coherently pursued its interests by wanting a passage opened for it in one place, and pursues its interests by wanting a passage closed in another place… The problem is that those things are not actually in America’s interests, or that they are selfish and disregard other innocent people, etc.

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Avid Amoeba

All true but highlighting the hypocrisy is useful in changing changeable minds. I do believe that the unchangeable mind are a large minority. I think there’s a lot of people who believe what they do because they’ve never heard anything but exceptionalist propaganda since birth.

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teyrnon 21h ago

It is more than that. The ones that control society want them to be that way, so they go along to get along. That’s the big factor.

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mfed1122 18h ago

My problem with this is that I think a lot of the changeable minds that are on the fence will recognize how it isn’t really hypocritical, and so this misses the point and just makes it look like a stupid complaint. Because indeed, there isn’t hypocrisy going on here. The mentality is wrong for other reasons, but not because of hypocrisy. So when it comes to changeable minds, I feel like it’s better to put forward solid reasoning rather than merely sophistic reasoning - as the second kind is usually only useful for preaching to a choir who is willing to overlook logical flaws.

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Avid Amoeba 18h ago

I understand. Can you give me an example of a true line of reasoning? Honest, good faith question, in case I learn something I can use. :D

If too much work, don’t worry about it.

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squaresinger 7h ago

Hypocrisy doesn’t apply here. Unfairness does for people who understand fairness as a global standard, following the golden rule, as in “fair is if everyone gets treated equally and the same rules count for everyone”.

For those who understand “fair” as in “something is unfair if I am not getting my way”, the fairness/unfairness argument doesn’t work either. That kind of egocentric view is common among right-wing voters.

What could work for people with an egocentric world view, who can also hold a thought for longer than 10 seconds is to think of the implications. What kind of impact does an unnecessary war on America’s long-term soft power in the world? What does it do to the US-EU relationship, that used to be so important? What will it do to the US citizen who wants to put fuel in their car and heat their house? But this requires reflective and long-term thinking, so that might be a tall order for some.

For the remaining people, an argument would be that Trump betrayed them. He promised no wars and America first. Now he is spending billions of dollars blowing up school girls in a country on the other side of the planet for … no specific reasons. He is a traitor to the cause he claimed to fight for.

In the end, there is no argument that lands with everyone. You always have to figure out who the person is you are talking with. What do the words mean that they use (the meaning of politically charged terms varies wildly between political factions)? What are the emotions behind these words? What are they disappointed by?

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mfed1122 5m ago

Thanks for this really nice comment. This is the kind of interaction that makes Lemmy awesome. I am working up a longer response to this when I have time but just wanted to pop in and reply a little earlier