onion2kMar 17

But you can’t just not review things!

Actually you can. If you shift the reviews far to the left, and call them code design sessions instead, and you raise problems on dailys, and you pair programme through the gnarly bits, then 90% of what people think a review should find goes away. The expectation that you'll discover bugs and architecture and design problems doesn't exist if you've already agreed with the team what you're going to build. The remain 10% of things like var naming, whitespace, and patterns can be checked with a linter instead of a person. If you can get the team to that level you can stop doing code reviews.

You also need to build a team that you can trust to write the code you agreed you'd write, but if your reviews are there to check someone has done their job well enough then you have bigger problems.

Show threadalkonautMar 17

This falls for the famous "hours of planning can save minutes of coding". Architecture can't (all) be planned out on a whiteboard, it's the response to the difficulty you only realize as you try to implement.

If you can agree what to build and how to build it and then it turns out that actually is a working plan - then you are better than me. That hasn't happened in 20 years of software development. Most of what's planned falls down within the first few hours of implementation.

Iterative architecture meetings will be necessary. But that falls into the pit of weekly meeting.

Show threadsodapopcanMar 17
Pair programming 100% of also works. It's unfortunately widely unpopular, but it works.
Show threadhallway_monitorMar 17
You are exactly correct. As to why it’s unpopular, I believe it’s just that no one has given it a fair try. Once you have done it for at least 20 hours a week for a few weeks you will understand that typing is not and has never been the bottleneck in programming. If you have not tried it then you cannot have an opinion.
Show threadpalmoteaMar 17

> You are exactly correct. As to why it’s unpopular, I believe it’s just that no one has given it a fair try. Once you have done it for at least 20 hours a week for a few weeks you will understand that typing is not and has never been the bottleneck in programming. If you have not tried it then you cannot have an opinion.

I haven't tried pair programming except in very ad-hoc situations, but doing it all the time sounds utterly exhausting. You're taking programming, then layering on top of it a level of constant social interaction over it, and removing the autonomy to just zone out a bit when you need to (to manage stress).

Basically, it sounds like turning programming into an all-day meeting.

So I think it's probably unpopular because most software engineers don't have the personalty to enjoy or even tolerate that environment.

Show threadsodapopcan

Well as the person you are replying to said, it's hard to have an opinion when you haven't actually tried it. I don't find it like that at all. Also, it doesn't mean you get NO solo time. Pairs can decide to break up for a bit and of course sometimes people aren't in leaving your team with an odd number of people, so some _has_ to solo (though sometimes we'd triple!)

But it's something you have to work at which is definitely part of the barrier. Otherwise, saying it sucks without giving it a real try is akin to saying, "I went for a run and didn't lose any weight so I feel that running is exhausting with no benefit."

Mar 17 at 2:05pmWeb
Show threadpalmoteaMar 17

> Well as the person you are replying to said, it's hard to have an opinion when you haven't actually tried it. I don't find it like that at all.

I don't need to try pair programming because I know how that level of constant social interaction makes me feel.

> Otherwise, saying it sucks without giving it a real try is akin to saying, "I went for a run and didn't lose any weight so I feel that running is exhausting with no benefit."

No, what you're doing is sort of like if you're raving about the beach, and I say I don't like bright sun, and you insist I need to try the beach to have an opinion on if I like it or not.

Show threadsodapopcanMar 17
I wouldn't call "work" social interaction but I get ya. It's my biggest pet peeve of this industry: it has a whole lot of people who just don't want to talk to anyone. It is what it is, though.
Show threadpalmoteaMar 17

> I wouldn't call "work" social interaction but I get ya.

IMHO, social interaction is anything where you interact with other people.

> It's my biggest pet peeve of this industry: it has a whole lot of people who just don't want to talk to anyone.

That's very black and white thinking. I like talking to other people, but too much of it is draining. Every day spending all-day or even a half-day working directly with someone else? No thanks.

Show threadsodapopcanMar 17
It's not black and white because that is my whole point: you have to push through the terribleness at the beginning to start feeling the benefits, and most people aren't willing to. I'm a _massive_ introvert myself, btw. But like, I'm not trying to convince you of anything.