Mastodawn

nation of professional protesters

https://sh.itjust.works/post/56935952

Do those actually achieve anything? The biggest protests we hard about where the ones against pensions reform and this reform was only delayed when the ruling party failed to form the government several times. It was result of typical politics, not protests.

What I see happening over and over in Spain is:

Some union announces a strike and presents it demands

They sit and negotiate with the government

(optional) They don’t reach an agreement, strike is enacted and services are limited to legally guaranteed 'necessary minimum’

They reach an agreement, strike ends.

No protests, no grilling on the tram rails. Just negotiating and using legal leverage. Last one was railway strikes after series of accidents. They reached an agreement before the strike. Unions called it “historic” and won better investment in maintenance and personnel.

So, do the French protest actually achieve anything or does it only look nice in memes? Can someone give some examples of what they won recently?

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freebee

In some cases I think it does help to protest and take to the streets and not only strike. For example striking dock workers and metal factory workers is one thing. Having them march on the capital is another still… There’s definitely overlap between these groups of workers and soccer hooligan groups for example. A large protest of certain groups imply the promise of non-state controlled violence if agreements aren’t reached.

Other case is when the protests is just really really big. A few hundred thousand does work to get the message spread more clearly how ‘willing’ they are to keep striking. While striking and just sitting at home during strike sends rather mixed signals.

It also enforces the “we’re in this together” in the workers.

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ExLisper 20h ago

It all sounds nice in theory but does it work in practice? I’m asking because I really don’t know what the effects are in France. We see a lot of marching but what are the actual results? As I said, the biggest recent protests I heard about were those against pension reform and those didn’t achieve anything. Did they the unions also strike to abolish this reform? From what you’re saying the protests would indicate there was a will to strike and the “we’re in this together” message was definitely there. The government didn’t budge. Did it work in other cases?

One example where I know mass protests worked were coal miners protests in Poland. Any time the government tries to reform the unprofitable mines the mines go to Warsaw, block the streets, burn some tires, punch some politicians if needed and get what they want. This only serves the interest of this very small group and every one else loses. Other groups like teaches and nurses that don’t want to punch politicians never get anything.

In Spain the government is way more scared of big scale disruption over long period of time that one time traffic problems in the capital. You limit the railway network capacity to 60% (legally you can’t limit it more) over couple of days and the whole country feels the pain. You organize a protest in the capital and one city suffers for couple of hours. I wonder how does this compare to France. Do they also strike? Do they achieve anything?

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freebee 20h ago

I’m not very familiar with situations in every country ;) A bit in Belgium and Germany. In Belgium it is like the Polish miners: if certain groups are involved, I think the effect is felt in agreements in the end. But that is still what is needed after all: agreements. No union wants to strike forever, there is money to be made after all, striking is expensive for the workers (which is a main reason unions exist at all). Workers and owners share similar goals, don’t forget: work, make money, be wealthy. Strikers generally aren’t disputing that, all they are disputing is how much % of the wealth goes to whom.

If the Metallurgy takes to the street, politicians are scared. If farmers/truckers block highways, politicians are scared. If dockers go to Brussels, they bring fireworks (also literally), politicians are for sure scared of them. These do happen to be some of the best paid ‘low education’ jobs. Is it a coincidence?

The magic is, and it happens rather rare indeed, that all of them strike together, you need the dockers supporting the nurses etc. Unfortunately I think the battle against the pension age is lost everywhere. The EU serves as a divider by the way: we’re always told we need to earn less of pension later or … because “all our neigbouring countries are more competitive in this field!”. Then you tune in to the media in the neighbouring countries: it’s the same fairytale. The capital succeeded in dividing the workers across Europe, unions across EU-inner-borders extremely rarely join forces, and it has become a major weakness of the unions in EU today.

In my experience the general public transport strikes do more bad than good to the workers, for sure in the long run. These strikes are just way to common, general opinion outside the profession is that they are already generously treated for pensions, holidays, etc.

Then there are a few groups of workers… they barely have to announce a strike and they’ll get what they want. One group is the train drivers (not all public transport, just the drivers). Another are the maritime pilots. If these strike, nothing moves. All ships/trains are blocked and the entire economy bleeds like crazy immediately.

But no, I can’t provide you with any concrete evidence of protests actually having forced a better deal than if no protest would have been held. It’s a gut feeling i guess. I don’t think there has been a lot of A/B testing on this, tricky to organize ;) And between countries cultures and striking traditions are just a tad too different to be able to compare it easily.

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ExLisper 20h ago

I don’t expect you to know the situation in France. I was hoping someone from France will answer that :)

I agree with you 100% on the rest. This is what it looks like in most countries. Some groups have bigger leverage and win confrontations easily, other groups never win. Some groups protests to get something, other groups don’t have to.

I’m just wondering why Internet is promoting France as some masters of protesting. As you said, people also protest and strike in Belgium and Germany and get things done. I see news about mass protests in France but not much news about deals being made. Friend that worked in France for some time claimed that they simply irrationally oppose any changes, even small improvements and eventually nothing gets ever done. From my visits to France I have a picture of a country where everyone is frustrated that nothing works. If you look at some actual data like actual hours worked, paid holidays or maternity leave France is doing OK but not better than other countries. So I’m absolutely not saying that protests and strikes don’t work. I’m asking if they work in France? Are they actually good at getting concessions from the government or do they just march a lot?