GodlessCommieBy far the largest
BenLeManlol no you don’t get it! You’re just trying to distract from the atrocities of your country that I consider you to be complicit in! I’m not complicit in the atrocities of MY chosen state! lmfao
It’s totally in good faith when Israelis talk about how awful Hamas is on LGBT+ rights or when Americans do the same shit over Iran. You’re definitely not just carrying water for imperialism.
I’m sure the people whose struggle you’re so concerned about will thank you as they can’t afford bread due to sanctions and their family is eviscerated by bombs.
It’s funny how I’m not even talking about Hamas, which I don’t view as much of a state, and more of a militia operation? Ik they’re technically the elected government but?
I’m talking about large scale world governments specifically. I’m not condemning mostly powerless people struggling for their lives.
It’s the same mechanism. When you say “Actually Iran/Cuba/Venezuala/China/other place the US wants to starve and/or bomb is bad”, you’re just carrying water for imperialism. It’s genuinely more harmful than when the right tries to justify those actions because it tricks people who would otherwise support those people into supporting hostile actions against them in the name of opposing their government.
The grossest part is that the people making these assertions never know what they’re talking about and genuinely don’t care beyond its utility as hostile evidence. Showing some lemmitor who thinks Cuba hates gays or isn’t democratic their latest constitution doesn’t shock them that they’ve been mislead and result in any change in position, instead they just forget that bit of trivia and move on, sure they’re helping somebody by supporting America’s hostile actions against them.
Why don’t you take this opportunity to post evidence of common misconceptions for other readers? /gen
Maybe I’m coming around on China, it’s the only one of those I would disagree with. So try to dispel some of my opinions on the Ugyhur situation. I got banned from .ml last night so I didn’t get to finish my fun argument.
I lived in Urumqi for a few months (also met some Ugyhurs when I was living in Kazakhstan).
So try to dispel some of my opinions on the Ugyhur situation.
I can’t dispel them if I don’t know the specifics, but in general, what you hear in western media is either made up or taken wildly out of context.
Until the 2010s, there were significant issues with terrorism, with riots happening in Urumqi. There’s still a few glass panels you can see where it doesn’t quite match the rest of the underpass entrance or whatever. The government responded by 1. absolutely massive economic development projects, from wind farms to greenbelts and infrastructure, 2. Increased affirmative action, so a lot more Uhygurs were going to college in Beijing and Shanghai, and 3. sending basically anyone convicted of any crime to a job-training facility, the idea being that people who have jobs would be less disenfranchised and harder to radicalize. It was generally successful in that there’s been fewer terrorist attacks and a lot more economic development among the Ugyhur population, but 3 was unpopular enough they wound that down in the late 2010/early 2020s. Other measures to stop the terrorist attacks include hiring a shitton of police and security guards. Every mall, apartment building, and hotel has at least 1, sometimes 2 60 year old guards on their phones. They often can’t read or speak mandarin fluently.
Orthogonal to this there’s a sort of racist/patriarchal attitude you see from some Han people the government tries to address somewhat with anti-discrimination laws.
There’s a struggle in Xinjiang (and much of China) about how to bring intangible aspects of cultures into modernity, often it’s resolved through creating a commercialized version of the thing that can sustain itself in a market economy. I have mixed feelings here.
How can 3 be anything more than effectively being labor camps? Can you personally or do you know someone personally that attests to whether they had a choice? Whether there were protections in place? Whether these were all fairly deemed “criminals”? What were their crimes? I think I saw someone use the figure 1million? There’s just no way that can be ethical, right?
How can 3 be anything more than effectively being labor camps?
Because they’re primarily about training them for a job when they get out.
do you know someone personally that attests to whether they had a choice
I never actually met anyone who had been sent to one, and only a couple people even vaguely knew what I was talking about to explain more. To be clear I only know a handful of phrases in Uhygur and Mandarin, most of these conversations happened via google translate, often after a few drinks. I’d usually approach the subject by asking about history and how things have changed over their lifetime, proceeding to “There’s more police than anywhere else I’ve been in China” “did you hear what the western media is saying” and see what they felt like talking about.
Whether there were protections in place? Whether these were all fairly deemed “criminals”?
They were deemed criminals by the justice system. I have only slightly more faith in the Chinese justice system than other country’s, but 1. acab, obviously some innocent people got caught up, and 2. Petty crime shouldn’t result in people getting taken away from their family for months.
I think I saw someone use the figure 1million?
Yeah no any figures you see estimated by western media either comes from Adrien Zenz’s ass or redditors drawing red circles around random buildings on google earth.
There’s just no way that can be ethical, right?
It wasn’t, people were getting punished by spending months away from their family over petty crime. That’s why they stopped it.
I mean. According to who?
So it sounds like they were being over policed and didn’t really personally know the extent of it because they weren’t deemed criminals and weren’t directly affected?
Okay cool.
I got that figure from someone defending China over it iirc so I’m guessing it’s accurate if you don’t know offhand.
Okay so they stopped it? Does that mean I’m supposed to go back to trusting the government? How do you square that?
Additionally: if a significant portion of the population was imprisoned, especially systematically by race, held against their will, and people were dying as a result of that, I would say that is the beginnings of a genocide. Just like how America is currently perpetuating Black genocide imo. Even if they didn’t fully commit or succeed, I can’t just go back to trusting that system.
I mean. According to who?
The purpose of the program was to create people who can get jobs and be integrated into the economy. Making someone spend months doing hard labor isn’t useful for decreasing terrorism and increasing economic development.
So it sounds like they were being over policed
Yes
didn’t really personally know the extent of it
They mostly chalked it up to the crime and terrorism. They didn’t have much a response to “but it’s safe now, why are there still so many cops”.
Okay so they stopped it? Does that mean I’m supposed to go back to trusting the government? How do you square that?
Nobody said you should trust the Chinese government, I said you should not trust the US government or help them justify hostile action against foreign countries.
The Uhygur people have their own struggles, that are entirely alien to the stories cooked up in western media.
I got that figure from someone defending China over it iirc so I’m guessing it’s accurate if you don’t know offhand.
That’s 1 in 20 Uhygurs, I feel like it would have had a more pronounced effect and at that scale, I wouldn’t run into people who seemed to have no idea it happened.
people were dying as a result of that
I’m pretty confident that didn’t happen.
ZizzyThats not at all how I interpret the message. I interpreted as “when the US is invading somewhere under the guise of bringing freedom and peace,” rather than, someone saying something bad about russia and it being refuted by the US being worse. In the first case the post can be true and still condemn multiple parties, because the US does infact try to excuse itself that way.
What does “and allies” encompass?
What does “murderous power structure” even mean?
Sources?
Yes the US is doing bad things. Human history is pretty much different groups taking turns doing the most murdering.
I’m not saying it’s a good thing, but can you show me a realistic path to stop it? Every time a power has fades in history, another one steps up to take its place.
Can you prove to me that the next one will be better than the one we have now?
Yeah basically came to say this
I don’t believe for a second anyone else would be better. They are currently just smaller.
If I had to guess on allies I would point to the coalition of Western European countries who routinely join US imperialist wars like the “war on terror” in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Id say the military industrial complex is a murderous power structure. If you want specifics look at the Pentagon, CIA, and carrots “defense” contractors such as Raytheon, Palantir, and so on.
IMO the path to stop it is something like anarcho- communism which you can start doing in your own neighborhood by forming collectives.
Agreed, but are you suggesting we sit back and enjoy? The only way to get over this stage is to call it out. Understand what is happening, create mechanisms that dissuade murderous psychopaths from positions of power.
For example, take money out of politics. As a politician you are not entitled to personal wealth. You have to give everything you have away and you live on minimum wage. End political donations etc etc.
GrailThe Republicans are way more murderous than the Democrats so I guess criticising the Democrats is a distraction and helps the fascists according to OP’s logic.
There is no material difference between when a democrat votes to bomb Iran to liberate them vs when a republican votes to bomb Libya-Iraqn because they want to murder more Muslims.
Surely you’re capable of admitting that the Republicans are putting far more immigrants in concentration camps than the Democrats, and therefore they’re more murderous.
Democrats voted to fund Trump’s ICE. There is no material difference.
The old good cop bad cop routine really works on you eh. Can’t see past it and you’re incapable of having a proper conversation about the issue. You get offended, you think it’s so obvious… I would kindly suggest that you look at the USA’s & allies’ foreign policy trajectory historically over the years. If you manage to look at the facts you will see that no matter which party is in power, the goals remain the same.
Watch how AOC and the like will not get elected and instead you will get a Newsom character running instead. Happened with Bernie and Hillary before and it will happen again.
Nobody, that is a regime party and can’t be fixed. It needs to go.
You need genuine 3rd parties, not these astroturfed faces pretending to be leftist keeping this theater going since forever.
You need genuine 3rd parties, not these astroturfed faces pretending to be leftist keeping this theater going since forever.
There have been socialist candidates.
It’s up to you if you want to vote for them or support another one, anyone can theoretically run.
You will have to get past the blue MAGA who during your last election fought harder to get them thrown of the ballots than fighting red MAGA.
Very telling.
It’s up to you if you want to vote for them or support another one, anyone can theoretically run.
You will have to get past the blue MAGA who during your last election fought harder to get them thrown of the ballots than fighting red MAGA.
Very telling.
Dems as a party need to be abandoned. Liberals scream FPTP then refuse to support better candidates to get them FPTP.
Maybe look up the numbers for the Drone King and Genocide Joe if you want to go there.
If you can’t admit Blue MAGA is just as bad you deserve Red MAGA, and I’m glad you got it.
If you can’t admit Blue MAGA is just as bad you deserve Red MAGA, and I’m glad you got it.
Well aren’t you just a ball of positivity? 166 comments federating over to our instance, and only 16 net upvotes across them. And if you downvote more than twice as often as you upvote, then it really seems like you’re not getting much value out of this site. You might have a nicer time if you log off and go make some friends. You know, go bowling or play some video games. I think you’ll have more fun than arguing with people on the internet, which, uh, seems to be most of what you do here.
LOL another one scavenging through comments and attack the messenger when no arguments.
So there’s plenty of disgusting USSA imperialist bootlickers on here.
It’s not a popularity contest.
I don’t like his anti-regime attitude so I’m pretentiously going to suggest he leaves. Would be much easier for you wouldn’t it?
I’m going nowhere buddy.
You can stuff your ridiculous meaningless upvote count and whatever irrelevant BS up your blue magat ass.
If you want gleichschaltung go back to your regime controlled Reddit where you can be in your little echo chamber.
I like it perfectly fine here calling out regime bootlickers and putting them in their place, even if they disgust me sometimes.
So there’s plenty of disgusting USSA imperialist bootlickers on here.
It’s not a popularity contest.
I don’t like his anti-regime attitude so I’m pretentiously going to suggest he leaves. Would be much easier for you wouldn’t it?
I’m going nowhere buddy.
You can stuff your ridiculous meaningless upvote count and whatever irrelevant BS up your blue magat ass.
If you want gleichschaltung go back to your regime controlled Reddit where you can be in your little echo chamber.
I like it perfectly fine here calling out regime bootlickers and putting them in their place, even if they disgust me sometimes.
Ad hominem argumentum is all they got. They expect you to fall in line and support all their neoliberal bullshit in their echo chambers. They don’t want discussion they want compliance
What is that tool?
it’s called the ad hominem tool.
The petty last resort for those without arguments or facts.
The petty last resort for those without arguments or facts.
I’m just curious how some users who have dedicated haters would look.
BlueMAGA is 10 times worse than MAGA. MAGA tells you to your face they hate you. BlueMAGA will smile at you, embrace you, and hug as if they’re an ally while they’re driving a knife in your back. And before they do that, they will tokenize you if you were marginalized.
The greater harm is those posing as allies to the marginalized, those that built those camps, those that lay the foundations for Republican crimes against the working class.
TheKingBombOmbKillerWhich Democratic candidate has run on a platform of bombing Iran to liberate them?
Do you not see how the way the democrats who voted against the War Powers Resolution justified their votes? There is bipartisan consensus on imperialism abroad and concentration camps at home.
Oh, I thought you were referring to the electorate voting on candidates that were explicitly pro war with Iran.
As for how the two parties voted in the House of Representatives, I would argue that there is a clear material difference between one party voting 210-4 to reign in Trump’s war, and the other voting 215-2 to let Trump keep on bombing.
None of them ever campaign on these issues, they just do it. There’s never been a war that Democrats weren’t foaming at the mouth to get into
Painting all Democrats with the same brush is pretty ridiculous and disingenuous.
I notice you focus all your energy hating Democrats. That is fine, they suck.
I also notice you rarely bring up Republicans. This is not fine and shows you operate a lot like a Republican operative. So strange.
When leftists do attack Republicans, you think we are one of you. Republicans and Democrats are cut them the exact same cloth, for the exact same ends.
Oh please, fascism is a scale and they are not just the same. Did you forget that socialist and progressives are generally Democrats. It is gross, I know, because they are ruled by the Neoliberals.
That doesn’t change the reality that they are not the same.
I feel sorry for leftist desperately clinging onto Fascist China and Nazi Russian. What a sorry state their team is in.
Socialists are not democrats, they are on the polar opposite of the political scale. The Democrats as a whole do not mind fascism. They just prefer it covert, something they don’t have to think about or see or even acknowledge, something they won’t interrupt their brunch.
This is it in a nut shell. Notice these sock puppets never complain about Republicans. I wonder why?
We do target Republicans, but liberals are so ignorant, they assume that we are one of you when we do it.
Berengaria_of_NavarreYou can hate both sides. The Iranian regime has killed substantially more Iranians (this year) than the USA has. Doesn’t make the USA a good country, both countries are shit. The main difference is that the USA is a developing theocracy whereas Iran is an established one.
The people killed in Iran were killed by US and shitrael funded and armed traitors shooting at civilians not by ‘the regeeeeem’.
And it’s unfortunately a few 1000’s, not the 30-40ooo’s the propaganda wants to make it as justification for their warcrimes.
And to even think the USSA killed less people is disgusting.
And it’s unfortunately a few 1000’s, not the 30-40ooo’s the propaganda wants to make it as justification for their warcrimes.
And to even think the USSA killed less people is disgusting.
I’ve met a lot of Iranians. None of them want to live in a theocracy. And none of them doubt for a minute that they’ve been executing protesters. Iranians themselves tend to be pretty secular people living under a bullshit theocracy.
Again, I have absolutely no love for the USA or Israel and absolutely despise trump. But don’t go round claiming Iran is anything other than an oppressive dictatorship.
You can meet a lot of ‘Cubans’ too in Florida or wherever that don’t like the Cuban government.
Gusano opinions don’t count.
Exactly like those anecdotal ‘Iranians’ you met.
All those definitely not-astroturfed protests in the USSA waving shitraeli flags.
If you would believe the western mouthpieces everyone in Iran is against their government and wants the shah back.
If that were the case then why didn’t a revolution happen since they’re being bombed and the fuhrer and shitrael have tried their best infiltrating?
They had a revolution once, and it was exactly against this torturing dictator puppet regime installed by the US.
I and you may not like the theocracy, don’t use it as an excuse for their regime change operations.
It’s their choice to decide on their country and they vastly support it.
You’re using the same BS hasbarats use to whitewash the genocide in Palestine.
But look what they do to the gays, we need to bomb them into freedom!
Gusano opinions don’t count.
Exactly like those anecdotal ‘Iranians’ you met.
All those definitely not-astroturfed protests in the USSA waving shitraeli flags.
If you would believe the western mouthpieces everyone in Iran is against their government and wants the shah back.
If that were the case then why didn’t a revolution happen since they’re being bombed and the fuhrer and shitrael have tried their best infiltrating?
They had a revolution once, and it was exactly against this torturing dictator puppet regime installed by the US.
I and you may not like the theocracy, don’t use it as an excuse for their regime change operations.
It’s their choice to decide on their country and they vastly support it.
You’re using the same BS hasbarats use to whitewash the genocide in Palestine.
But look what they do to the gays, we need to bomb them into freedom!
You do you 👍
I don’t see much point in arguing with someone like you. A member of the irgc could literally tell you to your face “I have personally killed 10 children” and you would still blame America, because your entire political identity is based on America bad, Israel bad. You’re immune to reason so I’d be wasting my time.
A member of the irgc could literally tell you to your face “I have personally killed 10 children
They couldn’t tell me because they don’t do that. That’s factually americans and shitraelis.
My entire political identity is factually based on America bad, Israel bad.
You can’t argue with me because you can’t win on facts.
You don’t offer reason or facts only propaganda in return.
Now run