SmackyroonChina bad tho, right lemmy liberals?
Both states are awful.
Wow, that was hard.
AmnesigenicDumb and wrong
ArtafernesThey are killing and oppresing muslim turks in East Turkistan
Cowbee [he/they]There is no genocide of Uyghurs. Uyghur genocide atrocity propaganda akin to claiming that there’s “white genocide” in South Africa, Christian genocide in Nigeria, or that Hamas sexually assaulted babies in Operation Al-Aqsa Flood.
In the case of Xinjiang, the area is crucial in the Belt and Road Initiative, so the west backed sepratist groups in order to destabilize the region. China responded with vocational programs and de-radicalization efforts, which the west then twisted into claims of “genocide.” Nevermind that the west responds to seperatism with mass violence, and thus re-education programs focused on rehabilitation are far more humane, the tool was used both for outright violence by the west into a useful narrative to feed its own citizens.
The best and most comprehensive resource I have seen so far is Qiao Collective’s Xinjiang: A Resource and Report Compilation. Qiao Collective is explicitly pro-PRC, but this is an extremely comprehensive write-up of the entire background of the events, the timeline of reports, and real and fake claims.
I also recommend reading the UN report as well as (especially) China’s response to it, which eclipses it in size and detail.These are the most relevant accusations and responses without delving into straight up fantasy like Adrian Zenz, Christian nationalist and professional propagandist for the Victims of Communism Foundation, does. Zenz’ work has been thoroughly discredited, yet is supported by western media for its utility in fearmongering. An example is lying about 8.7% of new IUDs as 80%, to back up claims of “forced sterilization,” from this chart:
Tourists do go to Xinjiang all the time as well. You can watch videos like this one on YouTube, though it obviously isn’t going to be a comprehensive view of a complex situation like this. Has there been mistreatment? Almost certainly to some degree, in a campaign as large as this. Is it genocide, be it cultural or outright? No, Uyghur culture is preserved and there are no mass killings.
Xinjiang: A Report and Resource Compilation — Qiao Collective
Western governments have levied false allegations of genocide and slavery in Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region. A closer look makes clear that the politicization of China’s anti-terrorism policies in Xinjiang is another front of the U.S.-led hybrid war on China.
What do you think about this wikipedia page then ? en.wikipedia.org/…/Persecution_of_Uyghurs_in_Chin…
I think you should reread my comment and sources, as they already counter that article. Do you think I haven’t read that wikipedia entry already? It’s the first thing people jump to when trying to prove a genocide, despite being full of holes and referencing Adrian Zenz, or sources relying on Adrian Zenz. Have the basic decency to check out the sources I linked.
Also communists looks like downvoting every anti china comment😒 like just accept that china is bad like USA or russia
You’re getting downvoted because your points have been thoroughly debunked, and we refuse to accept your fantasies as material reality.
Oh hello propagandist. Love to see you deny the Uygher genocide. This place is truly a cesspool. Down with authoritarian governments everywhere.
en.wikipedia.org/…/Persecution_of_Uyghurs_in_Chin…
Fun fact, that Wikipedia page used to be titled “Uyghur Genocide” but they had to change it after it became obvious that no genocide was occurring.
Anyway, do you acknowledge the white genocide being orchestrated by a shadowy international cabal, or are you a genocide denier? Because if a bunch of nazis say it, it must be true.
Also, name a single non “authoritarian” state. You can’t.
I 100% acknowledge all genocides by imperialist authoritarian shitholes unlike you tankies. Every authoritarian government deserves to fail. I notice how your mod removes links to Wikipedia yet you clamor for sources. You do not care for the truth, you are just propagandists for your preferred imperial authoritarian governments if you’re even an organic person and not just some official in the propaganda arm. Enjoy your little bubble, you will never win supporters this way.
davelAnd off he goes to post on c/meanwhileongrad 😂
Edit to add: 1) Wikipedia isn’t a source, dumbass. 2) We’re not the ones in a bubble. Previously:
It’s virtually impossible to be in an “echo chamber” when living in a Five Eyes country. Or rather, it’s virtually impossible to not be stuck in the Five Eyes liberal echo chamber. You would have to go full Kaczynski, living in a shack in the woods.
As if we weren’t—and aren’t still—exposed to exactly the same life-long indoctrination, education, and propaganda as everyone else in the imperial core. But somehow we, who looked beyond the cultural hegemony in which we’re surrounded, are the ones living in a bubble.
“Genocide denial” isn’t a magic spell. Do you not deny the genocide of white South Africans?
Also, do you think we haven’t gone over the Wikipedia entry with a fine-toothed comb already?
The US tried to foment division in China by funding and organizing Salafi terrorist into Xinjiang, and once its efforts failed, it made lemonade out of its lemon by concocting and promoting a genocide narrative.
The only countries pushing this narrative are the “always the same map” imperial core countries, which just so happen to be largely the same ones supporting Israel’s genocide.
Almost no predominantly-Muslim country buys the Uyghur genocide narrative, because they know it’s bullshit, because they talked to the Uyghurs themselves.
twitter.com/un_hrc/status/1578003299827171330
#HRC51 | Draft resolution A/HRC/51/L.6 on holding a debate on the situation of human rights in the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region of #China, was REJECTED.
- The Uyghur Human Rights Project is a product of the National Endowment for Democracy, which is the American government’s main regime change NGO.
- A Reddit AMA Claiming To Be A Uyghur Quickly Exposes A CIA Asset Slandering China
- The Xinjiang Genocide Allegations Are Unjustified
- Uyghur genocide allegations
- American Debunks All Major Western Propaganda on Uyghurs and Xinjiang
- US-Funded Uyghur Activists Train as Soldiers of Empire
- The blueprint of regime change operations How regime change happens in the 21st century with your consent
Genocide is more than just killing, it’s the deliberate destruction of a people including its culture and institutions.
(a) Show me the Uyghur bodies
(b) Show me the serious bodily or mental harm
(c) Show me the conditions calculated to bring about physical destruction in whole or in part
(d) Show me the measures intended to prevent births within the group
In accordance with China’s affirmative action policies towards ethnic minorities, all non-Han ethnic groups were subject to different laws and were usually allowed to have two children in urban areas, and three or four in rural areas.
(e) Show me the forcible transfer of children from one group to another group
violent incidents in East Turkestan
I wonder where those Salafi terrorists came from? Oh right: the US, UK, and Israel organized, funded, and trained them, as they did Al Qaeda and the various flavors of ISIS/ISIL, including the “moderate rebels” that just took over Syria. The blueprint of regime change operations How regime change happens in the 21st century with your consent.
Lol. Imagine declaring “Yes, I do believe the Jews are committing white genocide!” And thinking you’re making a compelling argument
Get a job
I’ve already read that article, the sources I linked debunk what’s fake and help contextualize what’s real. You should really do some due dilligence instead of coasting by on Wikipedia, many of the sources in that article link back to made-up claims by Adrian Zenz.
Your poor argumentation shows the cracks in what you claim. You start off with a classic poisoning of the well by your false equivalence of the far right so-called white genocide with PRC’s active suppression and genocide of Uyghur. “vocational programs,” “de-radicalization,” and “rehabilitation” all you use to desensitize us to what is really happening to the people. Just the same as torture apologists using “enhanced interrogation”. Leaked Chinese government documents (the “China Cables,” “Xinjiang Papers”) show are coercive mass detention facilities. Claiming PRC is the best source but yielding its bias is like citing Pravda to debunk Soviet gulags and noting "yes it’s state-aligned, but very thorough."Ridiculous. Your sources do not invalidate multiple independent researchers, satellite imagery, survivor testimony, and leaked internal CCP documents show what is happening to this vulnerable minority group. What’s your response to:
- The UN’s own 2022 report concluded China’s actions may constitute international crimes
- Documented forced sterilization, birth rate collapse among Uyghurs
- The leaked “shoot to kill” orders in the Xinjiang Papers Well, apart from your mod removing dissident for arbitrary reasoning? You can’t claim you want real discourse while doing that. At least own up to your imperial fascist narrative and that you don’t care about truth. You like imperialism when it’s “your guys”.
Your poor argumentation shows the cracks in what you claim. You start off with a classic poisoning of the well by your false equivalence of the far right so-called white genocide with PRC’s active suppression and genocide of Uyghur.
It isn’t a false equivalence, though. Just like ideas of “white genocide,” western countries often accuse their geopolitical opponents of atrocities, heavily distorting reality in order to make it impossible for the western working class to take an active stance against western imperialism.
"vocational programs,” “de-radicalization,” and “rehabilitation” all you use to desensitize us to what is really happening to the people.
This is what was factually happening, though. Prior to the establishment of de-radicalization programs, western-backed terrorist attacks were common, in order to disrupt the Belt and Road initiative (where Xinjiang is key to expanding westward). These included:
-
July 5, 2009: The Urumqi Riots resulted in 197 deaths, and 1700 wounded in mass stabbings.
-
October 28, 2013: Tian’anmen Attack, 5 killed, 40 wouded, when a Jeep was driven directly into crowds.
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March 1, 2014: Kunming Train Station Attack, 31 killed, 141 wounded. 8 jihadists committed mass stabbings.
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May 22, 2014: Urumqi Attack, 39 killed, 94 injured as 2 attackers drove cars into crowds and threw explosives at buildings.
And many more. Since the de-radicalization efforts, these attacks have gone down to effectively 0.
Just the same as torture apologists using “enhanced interrogation”. Leaked Chinese government documents (the “China Cables,” “Xinjiang Papers”) show are coercive mass detention facilities.
They don’t, actually. You’re referencing Adrian Zenz, professional propagandist for the Victims of Communism Foundation. He believes he was sent by God to punish China, and his work has been thoroughly discredited.
Claiming PRC is the best source but yielding its bias is like citing Pravda to debunk Soviet gulags and noting "yes it’s state-aligned, but very thorough.
I never said the PRC was the best source. Qiao Collective is pro-PRC, they aren’t affiliated with the PRC itself. They are made up of Chinese diaspora in the west. Further, though, I don’t know why anyone would try to debunk the idea that the Soviet Union had prisons. That all being said, China does release white papers like Vocational Training and Education in Xinjiang that document in detail how the program is run. Not listening to the defendent at all in a court case would have you thrown out as clearly unfit to judge.
Your sources do not invalidate multiple independent researchers, satellite imagery, survivor testimony, and leaked internal CCP documents show what is happening to this vulnerable minority group.
China already released a massive response to these kinds of claims. Many buildings alleged to be camps were just normal buildings. Witness testemony is about all there actually is, and it’s highly conflicting.
The UN’s own 2022 report concluded China’s actions may constitute international crimes
See China’s rebuttal, which eclipsed the UN’s report in size and detail, thoroughly debunking it.
Documented forced sterilization, birth rate collapse among Uyghurs
More Adrian Zenz bullshit. This claim comes from Zenz misrepresenting 8.7% of new IUDs as 80%, from this chart:
Zenz lied about forced sterilization and misrepresented numbers to do so.
The leaked “shoot to kill” orders in the Xinjiang Papers
The Xinjiang Police Files are made by the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation, a far-right propaganda tank, and again come solely from Adrian Zenz.
Well, apart from your mod removing dissident for arbitrary reasoning? You can’t claim you want real discourse while doing that. At least own up to your imperial fascist narrative and that you don’t care about truth. You like imperialism when it’s “your guys”.
I’m not the one relying entirely on the fascist ravings of a Christian Nationalist paid by the US State Department and UK Government to invent lies about China. Have fun taking this back to the Nazi bar you just came from, MeanwhileOnGrad.
Death toll in Xinjiang riot rises to 140
Chinadaily.com.cn is the largest English portal in China, providing news, business information, BBS, learning materials. The Website has channels as China, BizChina, World, Opinion, Sports/Olympics, Entertainment, Lifestyle, Culture, Citylife, Photo, Forum and Weather.
Lol. Sorry, one is absolutely perfect and must not have any problems spoken about. Let’s do some more you vs us bullshit (not that I am from either).
Do you think, perhaps, that there could be a middle ground between “as awful as the US Empire” and “absolutely perfect and must not have any problems spoken about?” Do you think the position “US Empire is awful, China is good but not perfect” can exist, or is that too nuanced?
Has anyone ever said that on ml! You may the the most flexible commenter here!
I don’t think anyone has maintained the position that China is perfect on Lemmy.ml. Defending China from overstated or false allrgations does not mean there are no problems, and the existence of problems does not mean most are not being actively worked on.
Maybe confronting the conversations is a better thing than denying and finger pointing then? Depends who you want in the conversation though, assuming such a thing is allowed.
I see more confrontation of the conversation than not. Denying can be useful for instances where it’s straight up made-up.
denying and finger pointing
Literally what the libs are doing constantly in any conversation about countries they’ve been brainwashed to hate. You’re afraid of a real conversation, so you just mentally shut down, repost the same old debunked propaganda for the 500th time, and shout thought-terminating epithet at anyone who dissents. The liberal caricature of communist society is in fact how they themselves enforce ideological compliance.
Literally every day. You guys, on the other hand, have to pretend not to see it because actually engaging with actual criticism (like you pretend to care about) would be devastating to your stunted worldview.
No, I want to see it. I hate the needless wars and aggression. Dictatorships, genocide, ethnicity restrictions, forced labour, natural desolation for coin/convenience, etc.
No superpowers are immune from committing these crimes.
It is my mistake to comment on the ml propaganda site though.
AntiOutsideAktionCynical lip service that isn’t reflected in your actual politics
No superpowers are immune from committing these crimes.
The sad thing about living in the empire built on these crimes is that they are so all-pervasive, it becomes second nature to see them as universal. Like a child born into an abusive family who sees the abuse as normal. Their parents tell them, in between beatings, that anyone who claims not to live this way is lying. The child slips into state of depression, believing that humanity itself is simply like this everywhere. They see no point in striving for better, because better doesn’t exist. When more and more people tell the child that this is wrong, that other people in fact do not live like this, the child may lash out in anger and denial, too afraid to entertain hopeful notions. “There is no alternative” becomes the accepted wisdom. Fear and spite close the curtain on curiosity. The cycle continues.
Lol you’re doing the angry 12 year old thing of throwing up your hands and going “Oh so China must be an absolute perfect heaven on earth, huh?!”
The way I see it talked about, that seems to be how a lot of people think. Every time a flaw about China is brought up there will always be someone with paragraphs upon paragraphs of denials. No matter how big or small the flaw.
Which reeks of people paid to post biased propaganda, and if they’re not being paid that’s just pathetic for defending a government as vehemently as they do.
I also have not once seen a person simping for China accept a specific criticism.
The issue is that the “criticisms” that people bring up aren’t reality, they’re propaganda. We can talk about real issues just fine, if/when you spend the time first learning how China really is, then we can actually have a productive discussion and treat you seriously. As it is we’re not gonna act as if disproven shit is real.
Give me some actual flaws then. No government is without flaw, so prove that you can actually speak negatively about China.
You also have fail to address the fact that many people will spend so much time and effort on arguing in Chinas favour. Everyone and their dog just seem to be waiting for the chance to write their dissertation on the benevolence of China, and yet rarely do I see the same in defence of western countries. Does that not reek of an intentional propaganda campaign to you? Not that you’ll ever admit that.
QinShiHuangsShlongEveryone and their dog just seem to be waiting for the chance to write their dissertation on the benevolence of China, and yet rarely do I see the same in defence of western countries.
Have you considered that what looks like “dissertations” might just be people applying materialist analysis, seeking truth from facts against the propaganda wave?
That China, flaws and contradictions included, has still secured historical wins for the proletariat of the periphery (especially in China), while the Western imperial bloc runs and has been running the world’s largest and most advanced exploitation and immiseration machine in human history on throughout the periphery?
So of course dissecting China takes nuance to weigh the real gains against the flaws and discern the truth from the wave of lies?
When you do a material analysis of the West and what’s left to weigh? Just capitalist plunder, imperialist immiseration, and fascism.
Wow, you’ve replied to another one of my comments in this thread after an hour, with zero prompting. You must be coming back here again and again just to pick fights.
This is the point I’m making, people aren’t this passionate about defending a government and pushing propaganda unless they’re paid to do so.
And if you’re not being paid… yikes.
Sort feed by new comments. See comment. Reply. That is how forums work. An hour is not a stakeout.
Your real argument at its core is that no Chinese(or otherwise) person could genuinely support the Chinese government unless they are paid or brainwashed. That is chauvinism. You dismiss my lived experience, my family’s gains, and the material progress hundreds of millions have seen because it does not fit your Western notions of “how it should be”.
It is the same logic as the person earlier today in this very thread who told me mainlanders only support the government because we “do not know any better.” Different person, same paternalism. Any Chinese(or otherwise) person who offers a nuanced, factual critique that weighs both gains and flaws must be compromised. Any mass consensus in China must be manufactured. The only valid analysis, in your view, is the one that confirms Western superiority.
I am not paid. I am not brainwashed. I am someone who applies materialist analysis and sees what China has actually delivered for its people. If that threatens your worldview, that is your problem. Not mine.
Had a quick look at your profile. With very few exceptions, (all of which I saw were pretty much about calling America bad (which is fair, fuck America)) every single one of your ~340 comments averaging about 10 comments a day every day for the past month, have been about defending China.
You seem to have no opinions on anything else. You only speak about China, communism, and how the US sucks.
If you’re not being paid, you’re as patriotic as one of those deep south hillbillies I hear about.
Your account is almost strictly dedicated to Chinese propaganda. Whether that propaganda is true or not is irrelevant to the discussion at hand, you’re spending hours every day to push an agenda. You’re a government boot locker honestly.
But to address the actual content of your comment:
I never said a Chinese (or otherwise) person can’t defend their government without being paid or brainwashed. So far I’ve not actually said a negative thing about China, nor do I plan to.
What I have said is the amount of people who with such vehemence, eloquence and verbosity who come out to defend China every single time about every single thing, is in fact suspicious.
P.S. Sticking around on a thread for hours refreshing it so you can argue about China is a bit stakeout-ish. But you do you.
Had a quick look at your profile. With very few exceptions, (all of which I saw were pretty much about calling America bad (which is fair, fuck America)) every single one of your ~340 comments averaging about 10 comments a day every day for the past month, have been about defending China.
Not true I discuss communist theory among other topics.
Also
Your account is almost strictly dedicated to Chinese propaganda. Whether that propaganda is true or not is irrelevant to the discussion at hand, you’re spending hours every day to push an agenda. You’re a government boot locker honestly.
Again not true. I use this account to practice my English while discussing something I had enough interest in to get a masters degree in (Marxist theory). China makes up a large portion as being the largest and most successful socialist state to date it is a major topic of discussion. Did you think this reply through at all? Bootlicking is when you have a nuanced take on a government. You are a brain poisoned by your dogshit government that sees you as less than dogshit.
I never said a Chinese (or otherwise) person can’t defend their government without being paid or brainwashed. So far I’ve not actually said a negative thing about China, nor do I plan to.
So when you said “Which reeks of people paid to post biased propaganda” you weren’t implying the people replying to you with analysis and nuance were paid?
What I have said is the amount of people who with such vehemence, eloquence and verbosity who come out to defend China every single time about every single thing, is in fact suspicious.
Communists posting essays is literally a meme even in the west. To be a communist requires study of dense theory is it really that surprising communists are elequent and can get verbose when it comes to debating a topic they have studied far more than you clearly have?
Sticking around on a thread for hours refreshing it so you can argue about China is a bit stakeout-ish. But you do you.
my entire home feed is is set to comments then sorted by new.
You should stop getting pissy and try actually engage with the content of what the communists and Chinese people who are correcting you when you “criticise” China are saying. No one says China is perfect but all the criticisms need to be taken in the context of the material conditions and the both the good and the bad for them to be worth anything more than a toddlers tantrum.
It is the same logic as the person earlier today in this very thread who told me mainlanders only support the government because we “do not know any better.”
Usually these same people are oblivious to the propaganda they swim in, but have a dissenting viewpoint and you’re the paid agitator.
Propaganda is only taught in elite universities because only future mandarins of public opinion are supposed to understand it.
Much like the old soviet joke:
A Soviet and an American get on a plane and get to talking. The Soviet says he works for the KGB and he’s on his way to go learn American propaganda techniques.
“What American propaganda techniques?” asks the American.
“Exactly,” the Soviet replies.
Have you considered a lot of your criticism are not accepted or have paragraphs of denials analysis because a lot of your criticism stem from a faulty base understanding and/or analysis (such as overstating the scale/scope of the issue if it exists or hammering on criticisms that aren’t real like the “genocide”)?
Just an example of what I’m talking about: The hukou system in the modern day is deeply flawed and there are many criticisms to be made of it such as it leading to wage disparity etc. However if I were to then say that the hukou system never made any sense, was senseless cruelty or some other such nonsense jumped off from it that would necessitate a few paragraphs of explanation and rebuttal to reach the truth of the matter. Which is that the system in the modern day is outdated and harmful but was a necessary policy to avoid massive slums forming and despite it’s harms does have some positive aspects such as the guaranteed land and homesteading rights should one end up homeless.
It’s important that criticism be principled and precise for it to have any meaning. I’d be very interested to hear some of your criticisms that were faced with paragraphs of “denials”.
That’s the commentary you folk give give though. Every post is US bad, any knows issues with cha are lies
Sounds very familiar here
Because you keep doing it dumbass
Cool as, dumbass
Stay stupid
You too
Your mother
Well, your super dooper mother!
Yeah, she is pretty great
Chickenshit mods
Chickenshit mods
Nobody said that and you know it, you’re full of shit