@Loosf
Exactly. The whole "are people fundamentally good or bad" argument that comes up any time people talk about organizing society in a more equitable way completely misses the point. Hell, that framing *guarantees* you'll never come to an agreement. Before you can have a productive discussion, you first need to establish a consensus on the definition of "good" and "evil?" No chance.

Instead, it's pretty easy to point out that we have literally the entire history of human beings as evidence that people fundamentally want to cooperate and build communities. I mean how do you even fucking argue against that?

"Oh yeah? Well, I think people just don't get along with each other."

"Counterpoint: every single collaborative effort that humanity has ever achieved."

It's right up there with the ridiculous notion that people need a profit motive to innovate. I have no idea how that myth persists when you can just point out the fact that "profit motive" was like the trillionth thing that people invented. You might as well say that people would never have invented the concept of writing without computers.