TheBrainlessMar 13
scy

"FOSS maintainers are unpaid and don't have the resources to manage large open source projects, they _have_ to use AI to get anything done."

I've seen this take a couple of times in recent weeks, and I've got two things to say about it:

1. We've been able to manage large open source projects for decades in the past, without LLMs.

2. Ever thought about how there may be a connection between "FOSS is unpaid" and capitalism producing trillion-dollar AI companies and more and more billionaires?

Mar 12 at 11:22amWeb
Show threadDaniel BohrerMar 12
@scy I've been happily woodworking without most machinery for the last few years in my free time. Table saws and routers and jigsaws are just too loud and dusty and dangerous and impersonal for my taste. I see a connection there.
Show threadTiota SramMar 13

@daniel_bohrer @scy I've thought about this metaphor as well. Even if* the world moves largely towards LLM-generated code, I'm actually okay with being an "old-school" programmer who actually understands the code they write. I've seen plenty others who are forking projects and rejecting LLM submissions to the point where I think there will be a vibrant LLM-free open-source ecosystem well into the future. And if my experience and/or others' experience and/or solid scientific research on LLM productivity shortcomings is right, those currently jumping on the latest trend are going to come crawling back to the LLM-free software sooner or later.

*There's lots of good anecdotal and scientific evidence that it won't.

Show threadTiota SramMar 13

@daniel_bohrer @scy two interesting things about this metaphor:

1. All evidence points to non-LLM coding actually being faster, unlike hand-woodworking.
2. Unlike with woodworking, the marginal cost of producing extra copies of software is near zero (well, LLM scrapers are trying to change that, I guess). This means that the LLM-generated code has to compete directly on quality, rather than becoming prevalent just because it has a much lower unit production cost.

Show threadDaniel BohrerMar 13

@tiotasram I tend to agree but disagree partially:
1. Some woodworking tasks are actually faster done by hand than the setup time involved for a power tool (think: CNC mills), especially for one-off projects.
2. Bespoke furniture is always something that needs to be adapted to the specific use case anyway, so 1:1 copies are seldomly possible. That's currently the main reason why cabinetmakers can make a living outside of big furniture factories. Quality comes through skill and practice.

@scy

Show threadStefan SperlingMar 13
@daniel_bohrer @tiotasram @scy I am starting to think of this in terms of programming (craft) done by organic/biological organisms vs. programming (slop) mass-produced by automated machinery with horrible side-effects on ecosystems. Just like it happened in the agriculture/food sector.
Show threadCassandrichMar 13

@daniel_bohrer @scy Completely valid, but table saws and routers and jigs are still tools. They're things that a skilled user can apply to their craft to get a predictable result.

LLMs are not such a tool. They're a way to replace the creative part of your craft with a sloppy, lossy copy of somebody else's work and avoid crediting them.

Show threadAnarchozionist/DatenproletMar 13
@dalias @daniel_bohrer @scy If your hobby is wood working you wouldn't use a robot that builds a perfect table from scratch at the press of a button.
Show threadCassandrichMar 13

@Datenproletarier @daniel_bohrer @scy I mean you might if you designed the process yourself and programmed the robot to do it. That's what some of us do with plastic and 3D printers, or with CNC lathes/mills and metal. And it's very much a craft.

The problem is not that the "AI" is making "perfect" output that doesn't involve manual work. It's that it's just haphazardly mixing lossy copies of other people's designs with no care for whether or how they meet any actual technocal requirement or expressive goal a person might have. This is rather the opposite of "perfect".

Show threadDaniel BohrerMar 13
@dalias @Datenproletarier @scy I guess every metaphor falls apart when you dissect it enough. I just saw parallels there. :-)
Show threadhaui ☭ 🇵🇸Mar 13
@scy
Brillant analysis!
Show threadCassandrichMar 13
@scy Wow, that (the thing you're quoting) is an utterly ridiculous take by someone trying to speak for us with no idea what we actually do or care about.
Show threadDuncanMar 13
@dalias @scy
Just a reminder, whoever you are replying to is blocked on my instance. That means the only thing I know about their opinion is that you disagree with it. That is more than I needed to know. The best way to deal with people that are not contributing is to ignore them
Show threadCassandrichMar 13
@Duncan @scy I don't see any obvious reason for them to be. I wasn't responding to any bad take by them, but one they quoted for discussion.
Show threadscyMar 13
@dalias It took me a few moments to realize that you're not talking about me 😅
Show threadCassandrichMar 13
@scy Oh, sorry! Edited to clarify.
Show threadscyMar 13
@dalias Thanks :) That wasn't necessary, but I appreciate it nevertheless. <3
Show threadCassandrichMar 13
@scy Well I don't want others who can't see your post because they don't federate your instance or whatever to think badly of you because you're the person @'d.
Show threadziviMar 13
@scy “They have to introduce unmaintainable unreliable slop into their codebase to maintain their codebase” is what that logic resolves to lmao
Show threadziviMar 13
@scy and as mentioned elsewhere in the thread, LLMs don’t make developers more productive, they induce a sort of psychosis that makes them think they’re more productive when it’s the other way around and actual development skills are being lost
Show threadi’m MiMar 13
@zaire @scy what if they need the psychosis against executive dysfunction, maybe this is a bit like medicating their ADHD with nicotine

maybe society does do everything it can to not give people meth
no matter the cost
Show threadziviMar 13

@mi @scy i’m pretty sure whatever you’re referring to is unrelated. the average sloperator is too normie to have executive dysfunction, and LLM psychosis isnt that kinda psychosis

  • abuse of mind-altering substances is a health concern probably dont do it
Show threadi’m MiMar 13
@zaire @scy what if executive dysfunction scales, so to say, and happens for a variety of reasons, including even the most basic lack of confidence in the subject? what if ADHD is more prevalent in one way or another, and we conservatively threshold our belief of what is productive and appropriate use of ADHD medication — just because we need it to overlap with the threshold for when we call it ADHD? (and I, of course, meant appropriate dosages rather than abuse)

I will not speak specifically on defining the LLM psychosis because I miss too many aspects of it when I try; maybe if someday I'll read any research.
Show threadLi ~ Crystal SystemMar 13

@zaire @mi @scy you cant abuse substances , substances are not people, substances do not have a way they want to be treated.

they can be used to abuse people (i.e if you like sneak it into their food or something) .. but they cant be abused :D

though im still not sure what the heck AI has to do with ADHD medication or 'the war on drugs' bullshit in general

Show threadziviMar 14
@Li @mi @scy good point!! ty
Show threadAnarchozionist/DatenproletMar 13
@scy If your unpaid hobby become overwhelming it might've become an unpaid job. That's not a problem of FOSS, but of capitalism.
Show threadananasMar 13

@scy somehow, if you need software that supports some completely obscure architecture, it is always open source.

We maintain shit nobody else cares to touch. That should be proof more than enough to show we really don't *need* help. We'll take it, but on our own terms.

Show threadsolo5d ago

@scy

FOSS maintainers are unpaid and don't have the resources to manage large open source projects, they have to use AI to get anything done.

then pay them.