Bad

My little state violence

https://jlai.lu/post/34031779

Mar 4 at 2:51pmWeb
Show threadDraconicSunMar 4

Let’s get some stats, shall we?

Since 1982, in the US, about 1130 people have died from mass shootings.

American police in that same amount of time has killed over 38000 people.

The problem has never been AR-15s, or the lack of background checks, or anything of the sort. It’s always been the pigs. But liberal suburbans enjoy the benefits of the pigs protecting their property while they kill poorer people, so telling them this makes them stare blankly, or they double down and continue to whine about weapons of war, to which I say: If you’re so concerned with weapons of war being in the streets, why does every law banning AR-15s add exemptions to the police?

Show threadTollana1234567Mar 5
and most of them in red states, despite who gop has been telling thier dimwitted constiuents that blue states have more gun violoence and deaths.
Show threadteslekovaMar 5
What about shootings that aren’t mass shootings? Why are you not counting those?
Show threadpewterMar 5
It’s weird as hell that his comment doesn’t mention that and is upvoted.
Show threadDoomsiderMar 7
Because we have lost more civilians to gun violence than every US soldier in every war ever combined in the last 30 years.
Show threadMirror GiraffeMar 10
While an interesting statistic, it doesn’t really answer the question.
Show threadDoomsiderMar 10

The answer is 1.5 million citizens. That is how much we have lost in the last three decades. The huge amount is the reason we do not talk about it.

Any normal country that was losing the equivalent of a war in population loss every year would be a huge issue. It would be a crisis.

But it is not, we won’t talk about it. Congress passed laws so we can’t study it. It is taboo because there is something much more important than this huge loss of life.

Show threadpsx_crabMar 4
I like how here it say disarm instead of defund or disband. But then disarming the police in US mean police is basically a sitting duck when shit happened because there’s like bazillion of people owning gun. I wonder how’s that gonna work.
Show thread🍉 Albert 🍉Mar 4
like it works in nations where the cops don’t go around with tools to murder people.
Show threadttyybbMar 4
I dont think they’re saying the concept doesn’t work, I think they just mean that its to easy for a bad actor to legally get a gun in the US
Show thread🍉 Albert 🍉Mar 4

In this case, the police are the bad actors getting guns.

maybe without them, they wouldn’t feel so comfortable escalating every situation.

Show threaddual_sport_dork 🐧🗡️Mar 4
Correct answer. Even in countries where by and large police aren’t armed, they still have a section of specific very heavily trained police who are armed who can be called in if shit goes down. For sitting on an overpass radaring cars, or showing up 16 hours late to write an incident report for the burglary they failed to stop, or harassing some homeowner about the length of his lawn or the volume knob position on his stereo, or any of innumerable other things the police spend most of their day doing they don’t need to be toting around guns. The majority of Americans don’t, and somehow most of us manage not to get shot on a daily basis despite theoretically rubbing elbows with most of the same criminals that the cops do.
Show threadx00zMar 4
Those nations have heavy regulated gun laws though.
Show thread🍉 Albert 🍉Mar 4
and do they have mass shootings on the daily?
Show threadx00zMar 4
That’s not the point. The point is that you can’t have a police force that’s weaker than the criminals.
Show thread🍉 Albert 🍉Mar 4

yes you can. have a special unit for those cases. the goons on the streets don’t need firearms.

Cops don’t need the option to murder me when giving me a speeding ticket.

Show threadx00zMar 4

Police in my country wear guns.

They never use them because criminals don’t shoot at cops.

You maybe get 1 crazy person per year that deserves to have a weapon drawn at them.

Your argument implies the inhumane and corrupt American police forces, which are an exception.

Show threadpsx_crabMar 4
In what nation where the civilian are a bunch of gun nuts and the cop doesn’t have gun?
Show thread🍉 Albert 🍉Mar 5

Love that the excuse Americans give for why it’s ok for police to carry lethal weapons is “Americans are stupid anf and dangerous!!!”

Yhea, cops should carry guns. if it is an issue with someone dangerous, call a special unit. Cops have proven themselves too stupid to be trusted with guns.

Show threadpsx_crabMar 5
I’m not american, in fact i live half way across the globe and i don’t trust people with gun, cops or american. Now answer the question.
Show threadchortle_tortleMar 4
Quite well from my perspective.
Show threadDamarusMar 4
By also disarming the people
Show threadRustyMar 4
@Damarus @psx_crab that would require use of force, its not gonna end well
Show threadDamarusMar 4
I guess then you’re cooked
Show threadRustyMar 4
@Damarus yeah, better to just leave if you can!
Show threadDamarusMar 4
Oh I’m good here in Europe, we do fine without guns
Show threadAzraelMar 5
How exactly do you propose we do that?
Show threadDamarusMar 5
That’s not my competence, I’m not a politician
Show threadAzraelMar 5
Well there are many reasons that disarming everyone in the U.S. would be virtually impossible and generally not a good idea (though those reasons only apply to the U.S.).
Show threadDamarusMar 5
I can absolutely see many hurdles in the way. However that doesn’t change my belief that people should not own guns, and we should move towards a society without guns. There’s exceptions of course, but those apply to a very small percentage of the population.
Show threadAzraelMar 5

True. No guns = no gun violence. Simple.

My issue is that banning guns for civilians creates a false sense of security. Criminals who are going to commit a mass shooting anyway will carry a gun whether it’s illegal or not. But because everyone else is unarmed and believes that applies to everyone, people can no longer defend themselves. Only an idiot would shoot at a crowd of people who are all armed. It’s kind of like a weapon that never needs to be fired situation.

Yes, i’m aware that there are other countries where civilians don’t have guns, and there is no gun crime. But those countries don’t have the same history with guns that the U.S. does, so it’s a false equivalency

Show threadLushed_LungfishMar 4
Violence is always a solution. It’s just usually the wrong one being applied by incompetent jackasses against the wrong people.
Show threadHCSOThrowawayMar 4
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Show threadshaneMar 5
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Show threadHCSOThrowawayMar 5

Yeah, Invidious went down due to YouTube breaking their API yesterday and apparently they’re still working to get it back up.

You can either plug that ?v= code into your YouTube, plug it into another YouTube alternative, or patiently wait until Invidious comes back up.

Show threadBig Baby ThorMar 4

Is this some American joke I’m too Norwegian to get? Yes, because our police don’t escalate, they don’t serve as some political tool to harass people for political gains, but they are highly qualified since you only make it to police school if you have high marks in most subjects…

In the US, you could be ruled out of a position as sheriff if you score too high on a damn IQ test.

See a pattern here, yanks? The more intelligent, the higher their chances are of being stable and capable of having empathy.

But then again, you do live in a country where the police used an attack helicopter to bomb a housing complex…

So maybe try community policing for a while?

“How about no police”

Yes, yes, and no laws, right? And no military… surely all these things are great ideas.

Show threadDefault UsernameMar 4
Don’t police in Norway also have their guns locked?
Show threadILoveUnionsMar 4

In the US, you could be ruled out of a position as sheriff if you score too high on a damn IQ test.

The sheriff is an elected position for the record. You mean police officer. Not sheriff.

Show threadDraconicSunMar 4
“Abolish the police” is essentially shorthand for ending the current institution. Community policing IS the ideal goal.
Show threadguitarfosecMar 4
  • This movement does need a better slogan. “Defund the police” doesn’t convey the idea properly.
  • This cartoon says “Disarm the police”, which is also terrible messaging and a straight up stupid idea. I wouldn’t work as a cop in this country without a gun.
  • Police of some kind will always be necessary. Violence and physical power trump everything else, which is why we need people who are allowed to use force on our behalf so that we can run our societies based on rules and not who is the best at violence. Our system allows the people to get together and collectively hire and fire the people that hire and fire the cops we interact with on the streets. I don’t know exactly how that got corrupted or how to fix it.
  • We need specific police reforms and the folks leading the groups pushing for these reforms need to work on their messaging so they don’t have people yelling and tweeting things out that make them look like idiots and turning people off. You’ll never win over the boot-lickers, but better messaging could be a game change overall.
    • Show threadDraconicSunMar 4

    I wouldn’t work as a cop in this country without a gun.

    99% of police work does not require a gun. You don’t need a gun to sit on an overpass radaring cars, to show up 8 hours late to a burglarly to take a note about what items were stolen to then immediately lose it, to harass homeowners about their lawn or the volume knob position in their stereo, to write a ticket and leave it on someone’s parked car… Nothing of that vein requires a gun, and every time guns are added to that mix, someone fucking dies. European countries DO have a subsect of police that is heavily armed AND HEAVILY TRAINED to deal with actual shooting incidents, but they’re only called when absolutely necessary.

    Show threadILoveUnionsMar 5
    Politely, a lot of people don’t think that way, especially communists and anarchists which are common ideologies on lemmy. They truly do think of it as end all police.
    Show threadTippyMar 4

    “How about no police”

    Literally no one of any consequence is saying to do this, and this is in fact a right wing strawman regularly used to justify increased militarization of police and to smear anyone left of center calling for police reform. You should check your sources for bias, because you’re being manipulated to believe something about a nation you do not understand the judicial nuances of to make you engage with ragebait content

    What people are calling for is to disarm all police except special response units (like civilized nations), abolish qualified immunity, require malpractice insurance and personal financial penalties for police, codify laws that force harsh punishments on police who knowingly violate the law and basic rights, disband police “unions”, standardize and increase training and licensure requirement across the nation, and move tax dollars away from turning the police into special forces operators and instead put it into community resources that prevent crime in the first place. No one needs to rob the gas station at gunpoint for a few hundred dollars and then get mag-dumped by a feral pig if they’re getting UBI and universal healthcare, make sense?

    Oh, and before you tell me I don’t understand police or the criminal justice system and all of its flaws in my own nation because I’m a “dumb yank” or whatever, I was in the CJ field for over a decade. I am very aware of how fucked up it all is and what the solutions are.

    Again, no one other than right wing grifters are saying “eliminate all law enforcement”. People understand the solutions a lot better than you think, but getting rid of over 200 years of entrenched racism and corruption when the powers that be actively love the racism and corruption isn’t an afternoon of work.

    Show threadYliasterMar 4
    What does community policing look like?
    Show threadsystemglitchMar 4
    Violence seems to usually be the solution. Waiting for the protests to no longer be peaceful.
    Show threadbackalleycoyoteMar 5
    I think the final straw will be midterms. It’s, IMO, a fool’s hope that a blue wave would do anything more than those in office already aren’t doing, but I get that most people don’t seek violence. If the elections are called off, winners not recognized, or the fraud/voter suppression is egregious, maybe then. Protests alone do nothing, the rich are rich enough they can survive a general strike longer than any of us can, so voting them out is our last chance to change course peacefully. After that it’s accept the New America or invoke the Amendment of No Return. And seriously, that’s going to suck.
    Show threadjdrMar 4

    Some countries do have unarmed police (though usually there are special armed units).

    It works really well!

    Show threadNatanoxMar 5
    What’s the definition of armed in this case? Firearms only, or does pepper spray also count?
    Show threadjdrMar 5

    I was talking about guns, but I think most don’t carry pepper spray either.

    See e.g. worldatlas.com/…/countries-where-police-do-not-ca…

    Countries Where Police Do Not Carry Guns

    There are in 18 nations and one US territory that maintain a police force of patrolling officers who do not carry firearms. Learn about them in this article.

    WorldAtlas
    Show threadNatanoxMar 5

    Mmh, I see some mention of pepper spray. What most definitely carry are battons. Also can we talk about how god damn based Norway is, making Police a highly educated force with mandatory studies in ethics and sociology? That’s the way.

    Under this model, success is achieved not through high numbers of arrests, but rather is preventative with an emphasis on defusing tensions and focussing on the frequently underlying causes of crime such as poverty, addiction, and mental illness.

    Some countries really understood it. Only with these things combined (as well as proper pay, healthcare etc) a police can be trusted with the right and privilege to enforce law. Still without daily gun carrying.

    Show threadTollana1234567Mar 5
    france, and UK i think, probably Spain.
    Show threadLaserMar 5
    Guardia Civil makes up for it
    Show threadjdrMar 5
    Spain has many different police forces with different rules, but usually the cops you see on the street have a pistol on their hip and it’s totally too see bigger guns when they’re guarding something.
    Show threadSolumbranMar 14
    France for now, until Macron makes his own militia to take control of France
    Show threadFokeuMar 5
    Violence never being the solution isn’t true to begin with.
    Show threadTollana1234567Mar 5
    yup, sooner or later 1 side uses violence and then chaos ensues. in most cases always the govt who does it first.
    Show threaddoingthestuffMar 5
    I’m on board with disarming everyone, but I want to go last.
    Show threadA_Chilean_CyborgMar 5

    In my country there was a time where that idea was poppular, after the rise of organized crime it isn’t anymore, police is a necessary evil because it’s meant to protect us from things much worse than it.

    You Americans have never known the struggle of not functioning institutions until now, and don’t know what dangers lies behind a country where police won’t come if you call them.

    Show threadUgandan AirwaysMar 5
    The police don’t come now if you live in the wrong area. American police protect the property of the rich. That’s it.
    Show threaddk841143Mar 6
    America is pretty massive. Is this the case across the board? Seems like an oversimplification of a complex system/problem. How much of it might be something as simple as staffing shortages, not enough staff to respond to every need, esp. in a very “needy” place?