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Sun's finally been out, and so are the daffodils, everywhere!
#MEcfsEgress #BloomScrolling DailyNaturePics 249

@Irisfreundin Thanks for noticing. I was very tired and in a rush. They are all plain daffodils, per the body text, so I wasn't sure what value ALT would add for anyone..?

The whole point of these photots is visual enjoyment, no real information content. Do you think anyone is likely to benefit from added ALT in this kind of case? (For my future reference.)

@Irisfreundin - thanks for the link. Friendly discussion:

So maybe I should have handed this off with #ALT4me? Interesting, on screen reader emoji & camel case interaction....

But I didn't spot a good "why", for this case. Unless one is looking to maximise reach, by (as you basically say) virtue signalling to *sighted* users.

Do you know (or are you) visually impaired? I feel I've posted more ALT than body text, across thousands of pics, this last year. But zero feedback on any of it...
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@Irisfreundin ... I feel no one reads it; so it's only remarkable in it's absence.

Yet it takes me a non-negligable amount of my short energy. And I personally (with ADHD, perhaps) find the "ALT" lettering distracts from enjoying the images. A compromise.

Apparently I've been doing it wrong, too, by using AI for (too?) detailed visual descriptions (and species identification).

Would 3x "pretty flower(s)" ALT be directly appreciated by anyone at all?
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@Richard Lewis You can really put a whole lot of effort into finding the optimal description for each one of your images. You can sit down and educate yourself by reading through dozens upon dozens of webpages and articles and blog posts about alt-texts and image descriptions. You can spend hours or days or more searching for and reading Mastodon posts, about alt-texts and image descriptions from a Mastodon point of view until you hope you're well-educated enough to know how to optimise your image descriptions for the Fediverse.

You can rack your brains about
  • what's important in your image in the context of your post and what isn't
  • who will or may be in the audience of your post
  • what they know about your post/your images and what they don't
  • what they may want to know about your post/your images, regardless of whether that's important in the context or not
  • whether they're willing to go find the missing information themselves
  • whether they could find the missing information themselves if they tried in the first place, or whether they'd have to depend on asking you
  • whether having to ask or search for missing information is okay in the culture of your audience, or whether you're required to supply all that information right away
and optimise each one of your image descriptions according to your findings. You don't want to throw anyone in front of a bus by neglect, now, do you? And you don't want to appear like a lazy bum, right?

You can educate yourself about many rules of describing images. Like, how to properly describe colours. Or to always put explanations into the post text body and never into the alt-text. Or when and why an additional image description in the post text body makes sense. You can abide by them all.

You can hone your skills and fine-tune your image descriptions at least to near-perfection. You can spend hours or days describing one image, composing and writing it completely by hand with absolutely zero AI support.

Nobody will honour it. It feels like nobody really appreciates your effort if nobody even likes/faves your image posts.

I've done all of the above. All the way to describing each image twice over. Not often because it takes me very long to describe one measly image. I haven't posted a single fully original image since mid-2024. But whenever I do, practically nobody cares.

Granted, it doesn't help that the two channels on which I post my images nowadays (if at all), @Jupiter Rowland's (streams) outlet and @Jupiter's Fedi-Memes on (streams), barely have any reach. And even if they had, most Mastodon users would be scared away by the summary/CW announcing a post that exceeds 500 characters by huge magnitudes. But my original image posts can't do without a long image description in the post text body, and even my meme posts can't do without an appropriate amount of explanations, so they have to be that long. And it feels like I've just wasted the hours or days that I've invested into researching for and writing image descriptions.

If anything at all, someone from the alt-text police will show up and attack you and call you ableist for not describing your images exactly by their personal standards. In fact, you can be called ableist by talking about image descriptions instead of just simply delivering perfect image descriptions right off the bat. By whichever definition of "perfect". But don't you dare deviate from it even only a smidge, for that'd be ableist.

Although, seriously, people getting together and talking about image descriptions and alt-texts and finding a consensus and common definitions for good alt-texts and image descriptions for the whole Fediverse is what we so direly need. But not even the alt-text police coordinate their image description quality standards, nor do they communicate them. You have to know them just like so.

What makes matters worse is that if your alt-text exceeds 512 characters, Misskey will discard it entirely, and accessibility activists on Misskey will think you're too lazy to write an alt-text. This may apply to the various Forkeys as well.

You can't possibly write perfect image descriptions for everyone. But you have to write perfect image descriptions for everyone because everyone demands you write perfect image descriptions for them personally. Or else!

CC: @Nervensäge 💐 @jeSuisatire  neindochohh ᘛ⁐̤ᕐᐷ

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta #AltTextPolice #A11y #Accessibility #Ableist #Ableism #AbleismMeta #CWAbleismMeta
Jupiter Rowland - [email protected]

@jupiter_rowland - It seems like you've been through quite the ALT text odyssey!

Some interesting info-nuggets in there. Too much for my (dyslexic) slow reading to finish all of your replies...

But seems like a bit of a Gödelian incompleteness situation. Or, at least, "you can't please everyone, any of the time".

Did you speak much with people who use screen readers, along the way? (In brief 🙏 ). That was my main curiosity; to get more directly grounded perspective.

@Richard Lewis That's the trouble: The only way to actually speak with screen reader users is to find them, single them out and mention them personally. And even then they will have to want to discuss these matters with you.

This is also because next to everyone in the Fediverse who isn't sighted is on Mastodon and only on Mastodon. And Mastodon has no support for groups whatsoever. Discussing things would be much easier if Mastodon had had full-blown group support, either simply compatible with existing Fediverse group solutions or with its own solution that's fully compatible with what else supports groups, already before Musk announced he'd take over Twitter. Then Mastodon's culture would include groups rather than being completely oblivious of groups.

What I know, though, is that blind and visually-impaired Mastodon users are happy to have some alt-texts. On the commercial social platforms, they got nothing. So they generally don't have sky-high demands. In fact, unless it's a matter of life and death, they don't really care how accurate a description is because they can't verify the accuracy anyway. Also, some like a bit of whimsy with their alt-texts.

But I'm rather safe than sorry. Besides, it isn't the blind or visually-impaired people who police alt-texts and image descriptions. Mastodon's alt-text police are fully sighted. And it's them who sanction you and who decide whether you're allowed to have any reach in the Fediverse, based on how you describe your images.

However, due to Mastodon's limitations, the alt-text police don't talk to each other either, nor do they ever talk to anyone who isn't sighted. So everyone enforces different quality standards while believing their standards are the official gold standards.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta #AltTextPolice
Netzgemeinde/Hubzilla

@jupiter_rowland Thanks. That was indeed the impression I got.

Tbh. I'm utterly out of my depth, in the Fediverse; I'm still primarily on Twitter (and one foot onto Bsky) because that's where my chronic illness community is. Cross-posting here, too, with Buffer.