Usually it is, but nothing in the wiki you linked to even hints to travel with/through mycelium. Im actually a fan of Discovery, but the only hint of science in the spore drive is the fact that mycelium and fungal networks do exist, they dont however operate in a separate space outside of normal reality, unless im missing some cool research

they dont however operate in a separate space outside of normal reality

Well, that would be difficult to prove one way or the other.

But since we’ve already got the fictional construct of subspace, the notion of a mycelial species that can extend through it seems…within the realm of truthiness, all things considered.

The part I’ve never fully grasped is how one travels along the network, but then, I’ve never fully grasped how the warp coils are supposed to work, either.

The original question for this post was whether or not there was any actual science behind the spore drive. You said yes and no. Please enlighten me as to what scientific theory you are getting the yes part of your answer from. Because I read through your linked Wikipedia article and couldnt find anything about how a spore drive could even be theoretically possible. The spore drive is purely techno babble. The warp drive on the other hand, while being mostly techno babble, has some grounding in actual reality and scientific theory.
SPOILERS: Star Trek Discovery’s “Spore Drive” is Nonsense (and Other Musings on Sci-Fi Travel Technology).

With Star Trek: Discovery hitting its mid-season finale, I figured it was okay to write this post — but if you haven’t watched yet, stop reading.

StarTalk Radio Show by Neil deGrasse Tyson
  • I said nothing of the sort.

  • Star Trek’s warp drive isn’t really an Alcubierre drive at all.

  • I and the physicists I know will go to the mat on the principal that the Alcubierre Drive is the first real life physics closed form proof of a warp drive.

    For the purposes of this discussion though, the more fundamental point is that Alcubierre’s theoretical proof of concept for warp drives was created in the mid 1990s nearly 30 years after TOS first broadcast and TNG had completed its run.

    As I have said here before, following the norm in mathematics-based theory development, Alcubierre started with a tractable corner case. This means he set a number of obviously necessary parameters to zero to make it possible to get to a closed-form solution that didn’t rely on crunching numbers.

    His objective in his PhD thesis was prove there was an exception General Relativity that makes warp drives possible theoretically.

    He did that, and as is usual with corner solutions, came up with something fairly absurd that would involve massive amounts of exotic matter and couldn’t steer a course due — simply because he intentionally set those parameters to zero for the purposes of the proof.

    It’s a misunderstanding of the way theoretical reasoning and research gets done to say that Alcubierre’s warp drive isn’t the one in Star Trek, simply because he chose the simplest case for his proof. The Star Trek warp drive would involve setting these parameters to positive values - but that doesn’t mean it’s a different theory at the fundamental level.

    As usual, more realistic applications of the theory, with nonzero values for those parameters that would:

    • actually allow a ship to enter warp from a sublight velocity
    • permit the ship to control its direction while at warp, and
    • would not require massive amounts of exotic matter,

    are very likely to involve massive amounts of numerical approximations calculated by a computer and advances in materials science.

    Unless someone finds a mathematical trick to get around the numerical approximations with a better closed form solution — and comes up with a materially different basic warp drive equation — whatever we get eventually from this line of research will still be viewed as Alcubierre’s drive. Or, also likely an Alcubierre-OtherPerson drive.

    Alcubierre’s theoretical proof of concept for warp drives was created in the mid 1990s nearly 30 years after TOS first broadcast and TNG had completed its run.

    Probably the most salient point - one cannot credibly claim that the warp drive was “based on science” that hadn’t yet been published, and wouldn’t be for three decades.

    Yup.

    And that Alcubierre’s effort, as a theoretical physics PhD student, to prove mathematically that there was a an exception to General Relativity that would make warp possible, was inspired by Star Trek’s fictional drive and not vice versa.

    Although it might go both ways these days, since it wouldn’t be at all surprising if newer writers heard of Alcubierre’s warp drive, and incorporated that into Star Trek as a mechanism for how it works.

    It’s more that Star Trek’s science advisor Dr. Erin MacDonald is a physicist who did her PhD thesis with the team in Scotland that got the Nobel prize shortly after she graduated.

    As she puts it, her friends got her into watching Voyager when she was working on her PhD and she thought “oh cool, just what I am studying.”

    There’s definitely a feedback loop going on, since Dr. MacDonald is whom they bounce their ideas off of.

    She appears as herself - although as a Starfleet officer in the 24th century — in animated form in Prodigy, and explains ‘Temporal Mechanics 101’ in a learning module.

    I was not saying that the warp drive was based on the Alcubierre drive. My pont was that the warp drive was more grounded in physics than the spore drive, so much so that it inspired the Alcubierre drive.

    That’s circular reasoning, though.

    The fact that Alcubierre was inspired by Star Trek to come up with something (theoretically) workable does not mean that the warp drive as originally conceived was somehow “grounded in physics.” At the end of the day, the similarities are pretty superficial.

    [Archive] Why *Star Trek* Warp Drive is not the "Alcubierre Drive" - Star Trek Website

    (originally posted here [https://www.reddit.com/r/DaystromInstitute/comments/w89sh3/why_star_trek_warp_drive_is_not_the_alcubierre/]) Very often I see people confidently think or claim that the Star Trek warp drive works like the warp “drive” first proposed by physicist Miguel Alcubierre in 1994. Unfortunately, this is in error (I put “drive” in quotes because Alcubierre apparently dislikes calling it a drive, preferring to call it a “warp bubble”). As Alcubierre himself says [https://youtu.be/5q_z8BjiYng], it was Star Trek that gave him the inspiration for his metric, not the other away around. Why there is this conflation may be because people desperately want to think that Star Trek is based on hard scientific principles, or that the same principles in Star Trek are actively being worked on in real life. I don’t propose to speculate further. There are also several fan ideas and beta canon ideas in licensed fiction about warp drive (notably in the excellent novel Federation by Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stevens [https://reddit.com/r/trekbooks/comments/fyuirq/an_interesting_excerpt_from_federation/]) but for the sake of brevity, I’m limiting my discussion to what we see on-screen and related behind-the-scenes documents. Background The basic obstacle to superluminal or faster-than-light travel is Einstein’s Theory of Special Relativity. Special Relativity says that as the velocity of an object with mass accelerates towards the speed of light (c), the mass of that object increases, requiring more and more energy to accelerate it, until at c, that object has infinite mass, requiring infinite energy to push it past c. In fact, Special Relativity says that nothing with mass can reach c - photons are massless and can only travel at c. From there, it follows that theoretical objects with negative mass can only travel above c, hence given the name tachyons, from the Greek tachys, or “fast”. Alcubierre wondered: if you can’t move the object/ship without running into relativistic issues, why not move space instead? Alcubierre’s idea was to warp space in two ways - contract space in front of the ship and expand space behind it, an effect he compares to a person on a travelator. So while the ship itself remains stationary in a flat area of spacetime between the two areas of warped space (the whole thing being the “warp bubble”), that flat area gets moved along like a surfboard on the wave of warped space. Of course, warping spacetime in this manner involves incredible amounts of negative energy, but that’s another discussion. So this is how the Alcubierre metric circumvents relativistic issues. Because the ship itself remains essentially motionless, there is no acceleration or velocity and thus no increase in inertial mass. But that’s not how Star Trek’s warp drive works, and has never been. Warp Drive pre-TNG There is no description on how Star Trek warp drive works on screen in TOS except perhaps for a vague pronouncement that the “time barrier’s been broken” in TOS: “The Cage” (in the episode Spock also calls it a “hyperdrive” and refers to “time warp factors”). During the production of Star Trek: The Motion Picture (1979), science consultant Jesco von Puttkamer, at the time an aerospace engineer working at a senior position in NASA, wrote in a memo to Gene Roddenberry dated 10 April 1978 (The Making of Star Trek: The Motion Picture [https://archive.org/details/makingofstartrek0000rodd] by Susan Sackett and Gene Roddenberry, 1980, pp153-154) his proposal for how warp drive was supposed to work, in a way eeriely similar to Alcubierre’s metric: >When going “into Warp Drive,” the warp engines in the two propulsion pods create an intense field which surrounds the entire vessel, forming a “subspace”, i.e. a space curvature closed upon itself through a Warp, a new but small universe within the normal Universe (or “outside” it). The field is nonsymmetrical with respect to fore-and-aft, in accordance with the outside geometry of the Enterprise, but it can be strengthened and weakened at localized areas to control the ship’s direction and apparent speed. >Because of the its non-symmetry about the lateral axis, the subspace becomes directional. The curvature of its hypersurface varies at different points about the starship. This causes a “sliding” effect, almost as a surf-board or a porpoise riding before the crest of a wave. The subspace “belly-surfs” in front of a directionally propagating “fold” in the spacetime structure, the Warp - a progressive, partial collapse of spacetime caused by the creation of the subspace volume (similar to but not the same as a Black Hole). But there’s no evidence that Roddenberry actually used this concept. In fact, Puttkamer said further in the memo that at warp, Enterprise would have “little or no momentum”, which we will see is not how it’s portrayed. Puttkamer was even against the now famous rainbow effect of going into warp: >The effect should not be firework-type lights but a more dimensional, geometric warping and twisting, an almost stomach-turning wrenching of the entire camera field-of-view. So while an interesting document, there’s no evidence that Puttkamer’s ideas made it into any on screen incarnation of Star Trek. Warp Drive in TNG and beyond In TNG, the first publicly available description of how warp drive is supposed to work came from the licensed Star Trek: The Next Generation Technical Manual (1991). At page 65: >WARP PROPULSION >The propulsive effect is achieved by a number of factors working in concert. First, the field formation is controllable in a fore-to-aft direction. As the plasma injectors fire sequentially, the warp field layers build according to the pulse frequency in the plasma, and press upon each other as previously discussed. The cumulative field layer forces reduce the apparent mass of the vehicle and impart the required velocities. The critical transition point occurs when the spacecraft appears to an outside observer to be travelling faster than c. As the warp field energy reaches 1000 millicochranes, the ship appears driven across the c boundary in less than Planck time, 1.3 x 10^-43 sec, warp physics insuring that the ship will never be precisely at c. The three forward coils of each nacelle operate with a slight frequency offset to reinforce the field ahead of the Bussard ramscoop and envelop the Saucer Module. This helps create the field asymmetry required to drive the ship forward. As described here, Star Trek warp drive gets around Special Relativity by using the warp field to distort space around and lower the inertial mass of the ship so that the shaping of the warp fields and layers around the ship can push and accelerate the ship itself towards c with reasonable energy requirements. The stronger the field (measured in units of millicochranes), the lower the inertial mass gets and it becomes easier to accelerate. When the field hits a strength of 1000 millicochranes, the ship pushes past the c barrier. Presumably at this stage it’s in subspace, where Relativity no longer applies, and can accelerate even faster to each level of warp until the next limit at Warp 10 (TNG scale), or infinite speed. I’m not getting into how warp factors are defined (but see here [https://reddit.com/r/DaystromInstitute/comments/11d5yww/the_warp_scale_changed_between_tos_and_tng_not/] for a discussion on the change between TOS and TNG warp scales, which also goes into the definition of warp factors, if interested). The Technical Manual was written by Rick Sternbach and Michael Okuda, who were both technical consultants behind the scenes, and evolved from a document prepared by them [https://www.trekcore.com/specials/thumbnails.php?album=185] in 1989 (3rd Season) to aid writers on the show in writing the technobabble in their script. (See also the history here [https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation_Writers%27_Technical_Manual].) Here’s [https://www.trekcore.com/specials/albums/trekdocs/tng-writers-tech-manual/S3-Tech-Manual-06.jpg] what the first, 3rd Season edition says about the way warp works, which is simply that the drive “warps space, enabling the ship to travel faster than light,” and that the ship is “‘suspended in a bubble’ of ‘subspace’, which allows the ship to travel faster than light”. This description also shows up in the 4th Season edition, and the Star Trek: Voyager Technical Guide (1st Season edition) in identical form. While the actual text of the manual never made it on screen, there are several pieces of on-screen evidence that tell us Sternbach and Okuda’s description of warp drive is followed: warp fields lower inertial mass, and the ship experiences acceleration and inertial forces during warp. Evidence of warp fields lowering inertial mass In TNG: “Deja Q” (1990), Enterprise-D uses a warp field to change the inertial mass of a moon: >LAFORGE: You know, this might work. We can’t change the gravitational constant of the universe, but if we wrap a low level warp field around that moon, we could reduce its gravitational constant. Make it lighter so we can push it. Later in that episode, we see the effect the warp field has on the moon: >DATA: Inertial mass of the moon is decreasing to approximately 2.5 million metric tonnes. At the time “Deja Q” was broadcast, all that was said about warp drive in the technical guide was that warp drive “warps space” and the ship is in a subspace bubble with no mention of lowering inertial mass. Yet “Deja Q” shows warp fields doing exactly that, which tells us that either the writer gave Sternbach and Okuda that idea or they already had their ideas in place behind the scenes. The latter is more likely, given that the Technical Manual was published the following year. In DS9: “Emissary” (1993), O’Brien and Dax use a warp field to lower the mass of the station so they can use thrusters to “fly” the station to where the wormhole is. >DAX: Couldn’t you modify the subspace field output of the deflector generators just enough to create a low-level field around the station? >O’BRIEN: So we could lower the inertial mass? >DAX: If you can make the station lighter, those six thrusters will be all the power we’d need. Evidence of inertia during warp We’ve known from TOS on that during warp speed, inertia still exists. If it didn’t, then there wouldn’t be the bridge crew being subjected to inertial forces when maneuvering at warp speeds and being tossed around the bridge (TOS: “Tomorrow is Yesterday”, when Enterprise slingshots around the sun at warp - with the last reported speed being Warp 8 on the TOS scale). In TMP (1979), we see Enterprise accelerating to warp speed before the engine imbalance creates a wormhole. >KIRK: Warp drive, Mr Scott. Ahead, Warp 1, Mr Sulu. >SULU: Accelerating to Warp 1, sir. Warp point 7… point 8… Warp 1, sir. As noted, a ship using the Alcubierre metric doesn’t need to accelerate, because it’s space that’s moving, not the ship. Additionally there’d be no need for an inertial dampening field (as we see in TNG and beyond) that is supposed to protect the crew when accelerating to superluminal speeds. From VOY: “Tattoo” (1995): >KIM: Could we go to warp under these conditions? >PARIS: The ship might make it without inertial dampers, but we’d all just be stains on the back wall. In the 2009 Star Trek movie, Enterprise was unable to go to warp unless the external inertial dampeners were disengaged. >SULU: Uh, very much so, sir. I’m, uh, not sure what’s wrong. >PIKE: Is the parking brake on? >SULU: Uh, no. I’ll figure it out, I’m just, uh… >SPOCK: Have you disengaged the external inertial dampener? >(Sulu presses a couple buttons) >SULU: Ready for warp, sir. >PIKE: Let’s punch it. If there’s no acceleration or inertia, there’s no reason why them being on would impede warp drive operation. Closing Remarks Taking all these pieces into account, I hope I’ve shown convincingly that the way the show treats Star Trek warp drive is consistent with a drive system that involves acceleration and inertial forces, and with warp fields that lower inertial mass - just like Sternbach and Okuda describe in the Technical Manual, and definitely not consistent with way the Alcubierre metric is supposed to work. For those who want a deep dive into Star Trek warp physics, some canon and some speculative, I heartily recommend Ex Astris Scientia’s series of articles on warp propulsion [https://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/warp.htm]. I also recommend Jason W. Hinson’s series on “Relativity and FTL Travel” [http://www.physicsguy.com/ftl/html/FTL_intro.html]. Hinson was a regular participant in rec.arts.startrek.tech [https://groups.google.com/g/rec.arts.startrek.tech] in the 90s and educated us on how Relativity worked and how it applied to Star Trek.

    I’ll go ahead and concede my point. I haven’t watched enough original Star Trek and definitely dont have enough knowledge in physics to argue this further. My understanding was that the warp drive was kept just vague enough to be argued to be theoretically possible. But honestly, I’m not a physicist, so I am probably missing something obvious.

    In the original Star Trek, that Alcubierre was inspired by, it wasn’t explained at all. You just had warp engines and impulse engines. Warp engines made it so the ship could go at warp speed, but go too fast, and they could come off the ship, or the ship would explode.

    It was later series that tried to have an explanation for how they worked.

    Although I don’t think the writers cared particularly much for whether they were theoretically possible or not, anyway. They work through subspace, and that doesn’t exist in reality, so a lot of oddities could just be brushed under that.

  • My apologies, I didn’t look at the usernames and made a bad assumption.

  • You are correct, my point was that the warp drive did fit within our understanding of theoretical physics at the time. So much so that it eventually inspired the Alcubierre drive. I couldnt find a way that the spore drive fits within our understanding of physics.