You have to decide if you believe there should be international law or not

The Nuremberg trials laid out a very simple idea: the supreme international crime is launching a war of aggression

The UN security council must be rebuilt from the ground up

UN must be wrestled from US control, it must not be allowed to use it as just another weapon, and we must work towards an actual system of international law, one where we are actually equal. the other option is global war

@ekis

the UN does need to be rebuilt regardless of any other factors

the security council for example:

france and uk both having seats is a colonial era hangover. there should be one EU seat

russia inherited theirs from the USSR, this wasn't even legal. russia simply should not have a seat

india should have one

brazil should have one

nigeria or south africa should have one

australia or indonesia should have one

egypt or saudi arabia should have one

china and usa as usual

@benroyce and no VETO.

@janantos

but how?

say brazil has a seat and brazil vetoes a decision but their veto is ignored and this greatly upsets brazil

this CREATES conflict

@benroyce thats why no veto but qualified majority

@janantos

you missed my point

1. if the regional powers don't get a veto, they won't buy in and there is no new UN

2. even if such a new UN came to pass, if you overrule a regional power they just ignore the UN. and the UN is not going to convince any country to expend much blood and treasure to go to the other side of the world and convince the regional power to conform

on issues of significance far away, not a problem. on issues near the regional power, their will dominates over the UN

@benroyce and you need to look in it from opposite site, almost in every corner of Earth there is some territorial border dispute. One veto -> same problem as current UN and very similar the same issue in the EU. Thats my point. When bad actor or even some sort of supporting country does have VETO, you have the same problem as now, except more parties can veto -> not solving anything. Thats the reason why I would opt for qualified majority (whatever ratio it means )

@janantos

i have zero argument

without the UN you have bullies picking on smaller countries

with the UN, you have bullies picking on smaller countries, codified into UN procedures

so there is no difference. this problem we're complaining about is not solved by the UN

it's just that the UN carries other benefits outside of this topic

@benroyce for other benefits and topics we might nit need VETO at all, we might be ok with qualified majority. We can have UN resolution that might be binding and not veto-able as now. The thing is, to enforce any of these resolutions, you might end up of need of use army, the problem is we as human society, we are really primitive species.

@janantos

but don't you see then you're creating conflict rather than resolving it?

if you have a UN force running around the world fighting with regional powers, this isnt an improvement over our current shitty situation, it's worse

nevermind who is manning this UN army?

no country can explain to its citizens why its soldiers are dying halfway around the world in a conflict they don't even understand

well, that's the USA 😩

but as you can see, that's a poor model

@benroyce practise shows us there is no difference, good example is eg Russia, we have resolution about Ukraine, Russia VETO, conflict remains, resolution (not paper, but conflict resolution) is not happening. How much I try, I can’t see any scenario where veto is resolving any conflict, it is just freezing, technically it is statement, thats one party does not agree, and status quo stays. If you will have it the way how parliamentary democracies have, thats president can veto law, but then second voting of parliament/senate happens and can/will over-vote presidential veto, that might be starting point for discussion, but realistically it means there is no veto. And thats the point.

@janantos

i totally understand that

and the UN is neutered now

but in the scenario you describe it is also neutered. because there is no capacity or will to enforce the resolution. and the recalcitrant country, that would have vetoed but is now overruled, will just ignore the resolution

so the scenario you describe is a UN that writes angry letters and the malicious of the world just laugh

@benroyce and we are again back to army resolution and how primitive species we humans are. The only solution to this will be huge meteor in collision trajectory with Earth, granting 100% annihilation of this primitive species we are, maybe and just maybe that time, we will stop playing this regional issues bullshit and start cooperate.

@janantos

sorry to be a cynic, but all that means is we reemerge the same some 10,000s of years from now

the thing to do is not be despondent, and keep improving, even if the effort is large and the payout is small

the fact we are even talking about the existence of something like a UN shows we are making progress (vanishingly small and painfully slow)

@benroyce no worries, I think I have showed my cynic side in this conversation also. But thanks for having this one, it gives one hope.

@janantos

likewise Jan! these convos are the best of mastodon 🙌

@benroyce here is a very long list of disputes, btw even your proposed Brasil does have at least one

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_territorial_disputes

List of territorial disputes - Wikipedia

@janantos

right. they're everywhere

and so you can't do majority only

the regional power will just ignore the vote

and no one has the will or the capacity to force the regional power to comply

so you've essentially neutered the UN more than it even is by removing the veto

the UN just has to be a place for powers to meet

@benroyce ignore or veto the results is the same, except with veto you are making it legal/legitimate which is maybe even worse.

@janantos

howabout a UN without a security council at all?

so all the good other topics UN does, and just avoid this issue entirely since we can't find a solution

@benroyce for sure. Security council can be alternated by ICC, hold on, a lot of countries does not recognise ICC at all, and some even have laws, claiming they can invade Netherlands in case ICC is criminally charging their politicians (yes I am talking about you USA)

@janantos

exactly, it's a farce

you get bright spots like duterte of the philippines hauled before the court

but so the ICC only applies to middle and small powers

while large powers still act with impunity, and they are the largest defilers