@OpenComputeDesign @kabel42 @rl_dane @pixx That’s a bit disingenuous.

Obviously, on a Sinclair QL or an Amiga, a rogue program can take down the whole system.

On Windows, with tons of design issues and decades of bad decision history, a rogue program can take down the whole system.

With Linux and the BSDs, this shouldn’t happen, but it’s possible, and most often it happens when trusting stuff like video hardware to do its thing where the rest of the OS has not as much control over things as it does with the rest of the computer.

With Linux and the BSDs, if you can reliably crash the whole computer using a userland program, that’s a big bug and should be reported.

On the other hand, sometimes it feels good to vent, and if that’s the purpose of what you’re saying, that’s fine, but understand that your generalizations aren’t correct.

@kabel42 @AnachronistJohn @pixx @rl_dane

Ok too be fair drivers are literally the worst thing ever and it would genuinely be better for everyone if we just standardized hardware so drivers could be abolished completely

@kabel42 @AnachronistJohn @pixx @rl_dane

What possible downsides could there be to no drivers?

@kabel42
Theoretically you wouldn't even need that but really, part of the problem with standardization is that if the standard way is bad, you'll just have people ignore it

Opengl is a standard and we still need drivers.

The only way around that is what rpi and, apparently, nvidia?? are soing, where the hardware has a coprocessor in it that implements the driver and then the api on the cpu is just a proxy

Which means you still have a driver but now you're dependent on the vendor for it and it's opaque and hidden

This is not better

@OpenComputeDesign @AnachronistJohn @rl_dane

@pixx @kabel42 @OpenComputeDesign @AnachronistJohn

Disagree. If there's a single hardware standard, and the vendor's implementation is crap, then the blame is on the hardware/firmware, rather than the OS/drivers.

@rl_dane

Yeah but it doesn't *matter* who the blame is on

When the standard is implemented as a driver in software it can be _fixed_

When it's a driver in firmware then bugs are permanent the instant the vendor stops caring

A valve dev has been improving Amdgpu support for older cards recently

If the driver was in firmware then that wpuld be completely impossible

@kabel42 @OpenComputeDesign @AnachronistJohn

@pixx @rl_dane @kabel42 @AnachronistJohn

Counter point:
If there were no drivers, and everything was standardized, then there would be no moving targets, and application optimization could be perfected in perpetuity without the threat of obsoletion that currently plagues the computing world

@OpenComputeDesign

No, because now you've just shifted bugs into hardware where they're harder to fix

Drivers aren't buggy because drivers are a bad idea, it's because it's a hard problem. Implement an algorithm entirely in hardware and it's impossible to fix if the silicon is wrong.

The only possible way to have bugs be fixable is to have software controlling the hardware, so that you can route around bad or incorrect hardware. You can't just say 'well stop fucking up the hardware then,' that isn't how anything works

@rl_dane @kabel42 @AnachronistJohn

@pixx @OpenComputeDesign @kabel42 @AnachronistJohn

I dunno, I still think it's better to offer standard interfaces than have every piece of hardware work in a bespoke way.

@rl_dane

Yeah but the hardware _is_ pretty custom, and very complex, already. Pretending it's not doesn't help.

Even something as simple as "reset" requires either knowing about every block that needs reset, or having effectively a cpu on device that performs that operation.

If you have software for it anyways- and you *will* - I'd much rather that software be in the os as source code than on the device as a blob

@OpenComputeDesign @kabel42 @AnachronistJohn

@pixx @rl_dane @kabel42 @AnachronistJohn

Concept:
_Force_ on device software to be open standards as well.

Lots of drivers, even for open source operating systems, still rely on binary blobs, both written to ROM in the hardware, and embedded in the drivers. Debian not installing such drivers by default for many years was _highly_ problematic, but it sure did give a fantastic impression of just how many drivers rely on proprietary blobs.

@pixx @rl_dane @kabel42 @AnachronistJohn

And besides, sure, there _are_ lots of open source drivers. But that's _despite_ the efforts of hardware vendors. As far as big companies are concerned, open source drivers are a bug, not a feature.

@kabel42 @pixx @rl_dane @AnachronistJohn

Yeah but, every single OS now has to either borrow Linux's honestly pretty crappy drivers, or go through the exact same process an Linux did with 30 years of fighting hell.

@kabel42 @pixx @rl_dane @AnachronistJohn

Well, using Linux drivers as documentation would be a lot easier if it wasn't for the fact that Linux stuff, in general, seems to have pretty poor code readability. And also, lots of Linux drivers _still_ have proprietary blobs at their core.

@OpenComputeDesign

Again, this is still progress. Things are getting better.

@kabel42 @rl_dane @AnachronistJohn

@pixx @kabel42 @rl_dane @AnachronistJohn

I have trouble believing that. As a rule, things rarely actually get better

@OpenComputeDesign @pixx @kabel42 @AnachronistJohn

Things don't get better on their own.

But they can get better.

@rl_dane @pixx @kabel42 @AnachronistJohn

I really disagree. I really don't think most things ever will get better, even with effort, as most effort will inevitably be misguided

@OpenComputeDesign @pixx @kabel42 @AnachronistJohn

Brofam, your battery has like nine negative terminals and no positive.

I mean, things are bad, but they're not THAT bad.

@rl_dane @pixx @kabel42 @AnachronistJohn

Believe me, I _wish_ I could fix this. But do you know how hard it is to get replacement batteries these days????

@OpenComputeDesign @pixx @kabel42 @AnachronistJohn

Uhhh, be the change you wish to see within yourself. ;)

@rl_dane @pixx @kabel42 @AnachronistJohn

The change I want to see in myself is to die, so :P

@OpenComputeDesign @pixx @kabel42 @AnachronistJohn

Wrong answer.

@rl_dane @pixx @kabel42 @AnachronistJohn

I dunno, no matter how many times I think through it, I always come to the same conclusion

@OpenComputeDesign @pixx @kabel42 @AnachronistJohn

You're talking about a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

Just because you can't see a way out of it doesn't mean that there is none.

@rl_dane @pixx @kabel42 @AnachronistJohn

First of all, in a world of temporary bandaid fixes, a permanent solution sounds _awesome_, and second of all, it's a permanent problem

@OpenComputeDesign @pixx @kabel42 @AnachronistJohn

Nyet, and nyet.

@rl_dane @pixx @kabel42 @AnachronistJohn

Depression will never not be an issue for me

@OpenComputeDesign @pixx @kabel42 @AnachronistJohn

I relate. HARD.

But the thing is, your depression is neither a person, a god, nor an abstract chemical issue.

Your depression is your brain's self-evaluation loop gone awry, and is both addressable and remediable.

@rl_dane @pixx @kabel42 @AnachronistJohn

Really don't think so. Any period resembling happiness is short lived, and punctuated by excruciating pain.

@OpenComputeDesign @pixx @kabel42 @AnachronistJohn

The opposite is also true.

@rl_dane @pixx @kabel42 @AnachronistJohn

Any period of depression is short lived and punctuated by extreme pain?

@OpenComputeDesign @pixx @kabel42 @AnachronistJohn

Life is punctuated with good things and bad things. You decide what to focus on.

@rl_dane @pixx @kabel42 @AnachronistJohn

No it's deffinitelf way more depressing than it is happy. No contest.