Cowbee [he/they]Capitalist authority vs. worker authority
protistThe 1936 USSR Constitution was immediately followed by The Great Purge and only lasted 40 years
The soviet union was indeed in a constant state of turmoil and siege. From aggression by imperialists on the outside, and sabateurs and fascists on the inside that sought to reinstate capitalism, the socialists were forced to take the very real threat of infiltration seriously. In the purges, the large majority of those found guilty were expelled from the party, with executions largely reserved for those guilty of extreme crimes. Even then, excess did occur, and when the Politburo learned that the NKVD was playing it more fast and loose, they were ordered to stop.
Do you believe that there wasn’t actually a serious threat of internal espionage and conspiracy? Do you believe that all of the ruling classes that were stripped from their Tsarist privledges simply gave up after the Russian Civil War? How do you suggest the soviets respond to such threats?
As for it only lasting 40 years, the 1977 constitution was more of an expansion on the 1936 constitution than a complete rewrite. It’s progressive social guarantees remained intact.
Oh I believe it without a doubt but I also believe that this fueled excessive paranoia and plenty of innocent people were screwed over, the cold war was fucking stupid, and the fact that capitalist countries still can’t stand any country being socialist is also fucking stupid but the paranoia that the siege creates can definitely have negative consequences for people living in socialist countries and IMO is a huge source of the authoritarian nature of socialist States more than there being any intrinsic authoritarian nature to socialism, I’ve seen the same thing happen in small socialist orgs.
Edit Exploiting this paranoid aspect was also a way the FBI used to wreck revolutionary groups, the black panthers come to mind.
Systems generally develop the processes to defend themselves, so you’re correct about excess happening. However, this is in the context of siege. It’s important to recognize context.
People were not “betrayed by the party,” and socialists haven’t promised “utopia” though. I’m not white washing everything, it’s important to get an accurate understanding of genuine successes and genuine faults.
What I’m telling you now is part of my families personal history as ordinary workers who supported the Social Democratic party in the late 19th and early 20th century People did feel betrayed by the social democrats when they supported the first world war. I know that my family members thought that universal suffrage and the ability to vote for a party that said they had the workers best interests at heart would usher in a better world. For them there definitely a utopian aspect to socialism and they thought their vote would usher in a better world. After the first world war my great grandparents were like fuck that shit, they felt betrayed and didn’t bother joining the communist party anymore.
I’m not sure what you’re talking about, considering the bolsheviks supported pulling out of World War I.
Lol, the Bolsheviks were a faction of the Russian social democratic party. I’m not Russian.
The bolsheviks supported pulling out of the war, and did. I’m not referring to non-communist parties, this meme itself is about the USSR. I’m not sure why you’re bringing in social democratic parties.
You do know that communist parties grew out of social democratic parties right? Seeing as my family members weren’t Russian it was kind of irrelevant for them what the Bolsheviks were doing they were sick of war, they were just were trying to scrape food together because at the end of the first world war people in continental Europe were starving and the idea of waging a class war for the radical section of the party that sent you into the war in the first place just seemed tiresome.
Anyways what I’m getting at is I kind of understand why so many people are cynical about socialism since for some people its not some crazy new radical idea, they’ve been burnt by politics before.
The Russian Social Democratic Party was a communist party, not what we think of as social democracy. I’m specifically talking about Russia, because Russia was the only country at the beginning of the 20th century to actually achieve socialism. Your family, unless I’m misreading you, isn’t what I’m talking about when advocating for socialism, because they never achieved it if they weren’t in Russia at the time of World War I.
I know what Social Democratic parties were, I’m trying to explain to you that some people were already disillusioned by what you call communist parties before the Bolsheviks had their revolution. I’m telling you I had family members who were part of the revolutionary proletariat before the Social Democratic communist split and by the time the first world war ended they were already disillusioned with the whole ideology.
Sure, but I don’t really think that’s universal.
It was a big part of why the Nazi party came to power and why so many people didn’t fight back against it people were so disillusioned with politics and the socialist parties had lost a lot of trust.
By the time fascism was on the rise they were just in survival mode because they’d already seen one war and just wanted to survive the next one. It’s was hard to get a bunch of people to fight for an idea that has screwed them over already. It definitely wasn’t the right thing to do but it turns out not every one is a hero when it comes to fighting oppressive regimes even if they don’t like them. Enough people will just keep their heads down and try to survive. History isn’t something that just takes place in books it happened to real people who also play a role in shaping its outcome.
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Gotcha. Either way, I’m aware that activism can be draining and it can be easy to become demotivated.
More than just draining politics can get you killed. I edited my other post so idk if you saw it but just out of interest are you american? You don’t need to dox yourself it’s why I didn’t tell you which country I’m talking about, but you were close to guessing which social democratic party I’m talking about.
Yea I’m not going to press you any further, I’ll edit it out of my comments. Yes, I’m a Statesian.
Its cool, don’t worry about it if people know a lot about history they’ll probably be able to guess from the context and most intelligence agencies already know who I am if they wanted to come for me they could.
Fair enough!
Ah I figured you were american, don’t take this the wrong way but I feel like you guys often treat European leftism more like an intellectual exercise than what it actually was which was a mass political movement that touched millions of peoples lives in different ways. Millions of people lost their lives families were torn apart whole countries were dissolved or they gained their independence. I don’t think the United States has ever really experienced anything like it since the civil war. The twentieth century is moving further and further away but for lots of people the political systems it created and ideological conflicts had very real effects on the people who experienced them.
Believe me, I’m not a Eurocomm, I’m very aware of the lacking Statesian left and the weakening of the movement in Europe.