✧✦Catherine✦✧"are software engineers Real Engineers or not" is a pointless distraction. software engineers who don't know how to deal with guilt love to self-flagellate with it and other than that there's no basis in reality for that discourse. do something useful instead
nobody asks if electrical engineers are Real Engineers or not even though there's no licensing requirement for the vast majority of EE work and plenty of people do it quite successfully without so much as tertiary education
4censord 
@whitequark wait there is no licensing requirement for them where you are!?
Here in Germany, you need a "master" (not a masters degree, so not university!) To run an electricians shop. Its a 2 year (I think) class that you can do after and apprenticeship
Here in Germany, you need a "master" (not a masters degree, so not university!) To run an electricians shop. Its a 2 year (I think) class that you can do after and apprenticeship
@4censord electrical engineering != professional electrician, these are different occupations
the former designs your laptop or USB charger or (in comparatively rare cases) grid distribution systems
the latter does the wiring in your house
Russ Garrett@whitequark @4censord but in fact you don't need any formal certification to be a commercial electrician in the UK - the law focuses on "competence" and doesn't specify where that competence comes from, though insurers might. (There is a qualification scheme for domestic electricians.)
groff 🇺🇦You don't need to be qualified to work on a car's critical safety features, ie brakes, either. Just follow a youtube video then hurtle down the motorway at 70mph.
But, with electrics, you can't do work that needs certifying without jumping through hoops, getting it inspected by building control.
So new fuseboard, work in areas with extra risk, etc.
And any electrical work done by anyone needs to comply with BS7671:2018 and amendments, a 600+ page large book.
@geoffl @whitequark @4censord there are no building regulations for electrical installations in commercial premises - it's covered by health and safety law.
Yvan@russss this kinda works out as being regulated in practice though?
Building Control wouldn't sign off on pub rennovation work without an installation certificate from an electrician.
And for the warehouse the fire department required us to show them an EICR (IIRC it was a 5-yearly requirement).
@yvan yeah, but there's nothing in law which says you have to be qualified to issue a commercial EIC/EICR either! But if you're doing that you're probably going to want to be insured and the insurer might have their own requirements.
@geoffl @russss insurance is always easy to get on paper... agree to the terms, pay the money... it's when shit goes wrong that the problems occur!
I did for a while a year or so ago consider doing one of those electirican crash-courses for the bit of paper, so called "qualification"... and to have a shot at getting into electrician work. Fairly confident I'm at least as competent as 80% of the experienced sparkies I've dealt with. There are some real shockers out there! (Pun not initially intended, but I liked it... lol.)
@russss no, and we did skirt around things a bit here and there... comfortable in our own competence (and where I was comfortable I could justify it), but then having a professional EICR done where that was required.
Similar situation to the PAT testing too of course. Always did that "in house".
But I suspect in both the BC and FD cases if I'd supplied Building Control or the Fire guys with an EIRC I'd done myself I'd have had a hard time convincing them. The Norfolk fire department were particularly detailed, but also pretty friendly and flexible.
And yeah, then there's also the insurance.
As a user of this sytem it feels "de facto" regulated, whilst not actually regulated.