"are software engineers Real Engineers or not" is a pointless distraction. software engineers who don't know how to deal with guilt love to self-flagellate with it and other than that there's no basis in reality for that discourse. do something useful instead
@whitequark It's just so exhausting. I get where it's coming from sometimes, but I really don't think constantly insisting that software is too much of a joke for programming to count as Real Engineering is somehow going to *improve* the state of the field