Bad Opinion GuyI'm still constantly baffled by just how absolutely beyond shit modern computers are
kabel42
R.L. Dane 
🍵 
16-bit/early-32-bit was my favorite era. (Basically, the #68k era ;)
Computers were just becoming capable, but not too big for their britches.
@OpenComputeDesign @rl_dane I had a good time with my first amd athlon 64 but sure, simpler times :)
I think computers were honestly better when they were limited to absolutely no more than 1GB RAM, no more than 256 colors, and no more than 1024x768 screen resolution.
1GB RAM: no LLMs
256 colors: no horrid low-contrast soupy interfaces
XGA Resolution: no horrid empty spaces and bloated interfaces
I keep wanting to make that as an OS 😄
(If only I had the skillz)
Yeah, and the pushback I get from statements like that is insane to me.
"But we don't want to go back to Windows 95."
I don't either, it was a crap OS, but the interface was better than the crap interfaces they're shipping today, so ?!?!????!?
pixxI'd rather w95 with its software suite and interface than w11 with its.
W11 is a worse OS than w95 was.
@pixx @OpenComputeDesign @kabel42
It does have memory protection, though. That was Windows 95's most glaring weakness.
Edit: I meant to say that it doesn't. derp.
Edit2: No, I was saying that W11 has memory protection. lol
@OpenComputeDesign @pixx @kabel42
Brofam, Windows 95 used to crash on me daily.
Linux? Basically never.
FreeBSD? Maaaaybe once a week.
Bitslingers-R-Us@OpenComputeDesign @rl_dane @pixx @kabel42 Is it the OS that crashes, or applications running on the OS?
Are the crashes related to video output?
The OS should never crash. If it does, you most likely have defective hardware, or you’re finding issues with your video hardware support.
@AnachronistJohn @pixx @kabel42 @rl_dane
If a program crashes, 95% chance the OS crashes with it. Preemptetive/memory protected is a flat out lie.
@OpenComputeDesign @AnachronistJohn @kabel42 @rl_dane uhhhhh no. just, no.
I have programs crash semifrequently and have had maaaaaybe two OS crashes on linux in the last five years
one of which was due to the hard drive failing
@pixx @AnachronistJohn @kabel42 @rl_dane
Admittedly most crashes are from come from running out of RAM/modern computers sucking at handling Swap latency. But even when programs properly crash without running out of RAM, even if the system doesn't _technically_ go out with it (which it often still does), there's still rarely any chance of recovering the system without (if you're lucky) a reboot or (more likely) a hard reset. Even xkill doesn't help all that much a lot of the time
@OpenComputeDesign @pixx @kabel42 @rl_dane You might have hardware problems, then.
I’m compiling perl on a system with 24 megs of memory, so the system is basically entirely in swap. If that can run like that for a week or two and be fully fine afterwards, then the VM system is doing what it should.
I can’t speak for Linux - it’s becoming the Windows of the open source world - but I also thrash the heck out of memory and swap on modern high memory systems, too, without issues.
@AnachronistJohn @pixx @kabel42 @rl_dane
I used to be able to live out of swap both on Linux and the BSDs. But these days, neither Linux nor the BSDs like touching swap _at all_. Linux is still much worse about it. But on every computer I have, touching swap is like running through a minefield blindfolded.
It's way too widespread of a problem to be a hardware issue
@OpenComputeDesign @pixx @kabel42 @rl_dane Let’s reproduce it so it can be reported.
I have an amd64 system here running NetBSD. I can force the memory down from 32 gigs to whatever I want with a kernel config change.
Can you come up with a recipe for software to install and run, and perhaps sites to visit and do things, that you’re pretty sure will result in a non-responsive system?
@AnachronistJohn @pixx @kabel42 @rl_dane
Yeah, if I load up firefox, log into all my chats and emails, and play a couple youtube videos, that's easily enough to use up all my RAM, dip into Swap space, and cause the system to start freezing and hitching, and eventually become completely unresponsive.
But erm, I'm guessing you meant that _other people_ could use to reproduce my issue. So uhm, let me find some sites that don't require other people to log into all my stuff...
@OpenComputeDesign @AnachronistJohn @kabel42 @rl_dane
...how much ram did you say you have? That's kinda ridiculous unless you have a _lot_ more chats than I think you do O_o
@pixx @AnachronistJohn @kabel42 @rl_dane
4GB RAM, 4GB Swap space. I have mastodon, matrix, gmail/gchat, protonmail (actually, usually close protonmail so I can have more youtube), and youtube is pretty much all I ever have open on this computer. I only ever have a web browser open, no other programs except terminals, and I reboot twice a day
@OpenComputeDesign @AnachronistJohn @kabel42 @rl_dane
...I know firefox sucks but 4G for that is a bit insane imo
@pixx @AnachronistJohn @kabel42 @rl_dane
Well, it runs fine on first boot. But after a while (A few hours, less if I'm doing research and opening extra tabs), all the webapps have leaked enough memory for it to really slow down.
Just as an experiment, I've opened some extra tabs to accelerate the usage (I'm on a fairly fresh reboot) and just 600mb of Swap used is enough for the system to lag really hard when switching windows
@OpenComputeDesign @AnachronistJohn @kabel42 @rl_dane
huh
Well I just ran out of RAM on Linux twice, _without swap_, and system recovered fine. Was responsive enough for me to go kill the system update (which was using all RAM to compile, uh, vscodium, i think. used that one fucking time lol.)
This tab in firefox got killed, as did steamwebhelper and several other FF tabs, but the system is just, fine
@OpenComputeDesign @AnachronistJohn @kabel42 @rl_dane
I wonder if swap makes it _worse_ lol
@OpenComputeDesign @AnachronistJohn @kabel42 @rl_dane
TBH I want to see a memory usage breakdown of your system when this happens, I think that's what you'd really need to know what's going on :/
Firefox shouldn't generally be leaking memory. I've left 100 tabs open for weeks and memory usage never just randomly goes up
@pixx @OpenComputeDesign @AnachronistJohn @kabel42
Firefox is good about suspending inactive tabs to save RAM.
@rl_dane @OpenComputeDesign @AnachronistJohn @kabel42
agreed, other than the part where you started by saying "firefox is good" /snark
@pixx @OpenComputeDesign @AnachronistJohn @kabel42
I think that Firefox is objectively, ethically the least bad among any modern web browsers that can load a page like youtube or amazon.
Horrible bar to pass under, of course, but it is what it is.
@rl_dane @OpenComputeDesign @AnachronistJohn @kabel42
sure, it's still shit software thuogh
I'm not even talking ethics, just as a pure matter of code
it's bad code
@pixx @rl_dane @AnachronistJohn @kabel42
Bad ethics, bad code, still better in both respects to Chrome imo :P
Still don't like it, though
@OpenComputeDesign @pixx @AnachronistJohn @kabel42
I'm not so sure that Firefox is better code than Chromium. But definitely more ethical. Or at least, up until a couple years ago.
@rl_dane @pixx @AnachronistJohn @kabel42
I dunno, chromium based browsers have always been buggy as _fuck_ in my experience. Yes, even worse than firefox.
@OpenComputeDesign @rl_dane @pixx @AnachronistJohn
when I use chromium it it usually is pretty ok except for roll20 that somehow manages to crash the waylands session
when I use chromium it it usually is pretty ok except for roll20 that somehow manages to crash the waylands session
@kabel42 @rl_dane @pixx @AnachronistJohn
Too be fair, wayland is also absolute _crap_ :P
@OpenComputeDesign @rl_dane @pixx @AnachronistJohn
Yes and an app crashing the whole session is defenetly a wayland problem
Yes and an app crashing the whole session is defenetly a wayland problem
@kabel42 @OpenComputeDesign @pixx @AnachronistJohn
A website crashing a web browser.
I would like to reiterate that I'm totally ready for #Catnarok, now.
I've seen the noblest science turned into a nuclear-powered turd factory.
@rl_dane @OpenComputeDesign @pixx @AnachronistJohn
Yeah, someone pushed a very experimental branch of reality to prod
Yeah, someone pushed a very experimental branch of reality to prod
@OpenComputeDesign @pixx @AnachronistJohn @kabel42
Maybe it's just that Chromium was a lot faster than firefox (until 2017).
@rl_dane @pixx @AnachronistJohn @kabel42
tbh firefox used to run faster than it does now. But too be fair that's just because web pages are so much worse now.
@rl_dane @OpenComputeDesign @pixx @kabel42 Chromium takes 2:53, or 173 minutes, to compile on the fastest computer I have.
By comparison, compiling the whole OS, including the toolchain that’s used to actually compile the OS, takes 1710.10 real, or one sixth the time.
Is Chromium offering more than six times the services of the whole OS?
Firefox, by comparison, takes 19 minutes.
@AnachronistJohn @pixx @kabel42 @rl_dane
Holy fuckenoider batman :o
*Hate for web browsers has increased*
@OpenComputeDesign @AnachronistJohn @pixx @kabel42
> Hate for web browsers has increased
Did not realize that was even possible. XD
OCD's browser hatred now hitting 110% XD
@rl_dane @AnachronistJohn @pixx @kabel42
I guess if you wanna under-xagerate 🙄
@kabel42 @OpenComputeDesign @pixx @rl_dane It’s that fast when it’s compiled on a Ryzen 7900 with 128 gigs of memory :)
@kabel42 @OpenComputeDesign @pixx @rl_dane Firefox:
1110.75 real 13362.60 user 1759.83 sys
NetBSD 11/amd64:
1501.03 real 20335.70 user 2940.96 sys
The diference between these runs and previous ones is that these were done when the system is otherwise completely idle.
@AnachronistJohn @OpenComputeDesign @pixx @kabel42
20th century: someone siphons gasoline out of your car
26th century: someone steals dilithium from your starship
21st century: someone sneaks into your home and steals your extra RAM and SSDs
I've got a 7950x3d and i don't actually know how long it takes
...ohhh right, that's because i use gentoos binary for it, one of the only packages i don't compile lol
...wow.
This isn't terribly surprising, coming from plan9 and compiling netsurf we have a similar situation.
150 seconds to compile the os on a dual core thinkpad, much much longer to compile netsurf which isn't even remotely comparable to firefox or chromium lol
@pixx @AnachronistJohn @kabel42 @rl_dane
I guess this is what we get for basically making web browsers sub operating system
@OpenComputeDesign @pixx @AnachronistJohn @rl_dane you can runn a whole os in the browser with wasm so yeah :)
@OpenComputeDesign @pixx @AnachronistJohn @kabel42
This is what we get for letting corporate idiots have a closed feedback loop where they poop out new "features" for the web and rubber-stamp the "standards."
@AnachronistJohn @OpenComputeDesign @pixx @kabel42
That's bonkers.
@pixx @OpenComputeDesign @AnachronistJohn @kabel42
I mean, all major web browsers are crap software, and the websites themselves? also crap software!
@rl_dane @pixx @AnachronistJohn @kabel42
Truer words have never been spoken
@OpenComputeDesign @rl_dane @AnachronistJohn @kabel42
What? I just said them a minute ago???
"truer words"
it's not that hard
@pixx @rl_dane @AnachronistJohn @kabel42
Sorry my mood shifted from "everything's fucked" to "everything's fucked; overdramatic crusader edition" :P
@OpenComputeDesign
Sorry I'm being a pedantic little shit
....pedantic tall shit but still. :p
@pixx @rl_dane @AnachronistJohn @kabel42
That's what life's all about, isn't it?
@OpenComputeDesign @pixx @AnachronistJohn @kabel42
We've noticed. XD
@rl_dane @pixx @AnachronistJohn @kabel42
I don't know about the saving RAM part, but it sure is good at making sure I miss notifications :P
@pixx @AnachronistJohn @kabel42 @rl_dane
Really? I've been watching on computers with 16GB of RAM the exact moment when webapps hit their 4GB leak limit and reset. Sometimes the reset doesn't fix the leak, so the RAM usage will just sawtooth up and down by 4GB or so
@OpenComputeDesign @AnachronistJohn @kabel42 @rl_dane
.....I have literally never seen this, from anything
@OpenComputeDesign @AnachronistJohn @kabel42 @rl_dane
From anything in a browser*
I've seen shitty applications, sure, but never seen this in firefox.
@pixx @AnachronistJohn @kabel42 @rl_dane
I only see this on systems with 16GB+ of RAM. Any less isn't enough to let each and every webapp hit their 4GB reset limit, so the system just slowly bogs more and more :P
@OpenComputeDesign @AnachronistJohn @kabel42 @rl_dane
...I have more RAM than that. Firefox _never_ gets that high for any proc. Never even 1G.
@pixx @AnachronistJohn @kabel42 @rl_dane
on my 4GB machine, I'm seeing several firefox processes with over 800MB of RAM usage rn
@pixx @AnachronistJohn @kabel42 @rl_dane
Youtube is the worst about it. Although, that's probably just because I don't use things like discord, facebook, or teams.
Gmail and Protonmail though _both_ have this nasty habit of slowing down to an absolute _crawl_ EVEN WHEN THERE'S STILL PLENTY OF RAM AND CPU LEFT
But at least they don't bog the entire rest of my system as bad as youtube does.
Well, protonmail still does a bit, but
@OpenComputeDesign @AnachronistJohn @kabel42 @rl_dane
Discord constantly crawls. Youtube works fine for me.
Iiiiinteresting. I've been assuming it was a discord bug, but I wonder if I'm running into a firefox edge case you hit with youtube, that I hit with discord, that I don't with youtube 🤔
@pixx @AnachronistJohn @kabel42 @rl_dane
Could just be that all modern webpages are absolute buggy crap just flailing around randomly :P
@OpenComputeDesign @AnachronistJohn @kabel42 @rl_dane no, because that doesn't explain why youtube is fine for me :P
@pixx @AnachronistJohn @kabel42 @rl_dane
Because random? I dunno, computers be like that these days. Seen family have the most bizarre issues I've never seen before, wondering what they could have possibly done, and then at some point in the future, randomly having the same issue with a totally different setup
@OpenComputeDesign @pixx @AnachronistJohn @kabel42
Have you thought about using the ProtonMail bridge and just using an IMAP client?
@OpenComputeDesign @pixx @AnachronistJohn @kabel42
Ah, poo.
If you're not a heavy user of encryption for your mail, mailbox.org is half the price (even less if you don't need the calenar/addressbook), and is standard IMAP.
Their most basic plan is 12 euros a year.