Mastodawn

Allie Healer Feb 21

Faith, Purple haired feminist 🧋

The whole "people shouldn't transition before age N because their brain isn't fully formed" thing is so catastrophically dumb.

Like, do you really think I wanted to be a fully formed man? Seriously. What's the upside?

For most trans people, the more of the wrong gender we get, the more pain it brings. Waiting until those changes are permanent only makes them worse. It's like if you have a gluten allergy and someone says they won't believe you until you've tried every loaf of bread in the bread aisle. More pain doesn't fix it. We don't get over gender dysphoria by exposure therapy. We just get more trauma that we have to live with the rest of our lives.

Instead, being able to transition BEFORE the brain and body are fully formed is the ideal. The earlier the better. The earlier you're able to get access to medical transition, the closer your fully formed body and mind will be to what they should be. That's a good thing! Waiting only causes harm.

The only reason why people think like this is because they refuse to believe trans people and trans experiences. They think that their default cis assumptions about people should override those people's own experiences. Sure, they'll grant some allowance in theory to adults who want to muck about with gender. But they don't actually believe we are who we say we are. Not if they think we have to have known since we were 4 but shouldn't transition until 25. The only way that makes sense is if they're either trying to be unbelievably cruel or if they simply don't believe we're real.

If you want to know if someone's an ally, look at how they treat trans kids. Because being an ally starts with believing us, that our experiences are real. And if they won't believe the kids, they're not going to believe you when you're 35 or 45 or 70.

Faith, Purple haired feminist 🧋

As a little follow up...

This wasn't about conservatives. I don't care about them. They're a lost cause and they can take their bigotry to hell with them.

This was about people who call themselves liberals.

Also, there are more groups that get regularly ignored than just kids. If anything, there's starting to be a cadre of good liberals who like supporting trans kids because kids are cute. You can see them in their girl scout uniforms and buy cookies from them. People love to play the hero and protect these cute, helpless kids.

That's infantilization, not dignity.

What about that really clocky trans woman in the grocery store who clearly hasn't had any sort of medical transition. Are you going to believe her? Are you going to treat her as a woman even if your years of gender detection training are screaming at you otherwise?

What about the teenage girl-shaped person who says they really wish they were a guy? Are you going to believe him? Or are you just going to do what every other person in this world already did and write off his desires as just a silly fantasy about how the world would be better "if only" and give him some "the grass isn't always greener" speech?

Being an ally isn't about playing the hero. It's about believing us and going to bat for us just because we deserve dignity, even when you don't understand.

We don't need spiritual leaders to "set us straight". We don't need heroes who fly the rainbow flag but are really in it for their "good liberal" reputation. We need to be believed. We need dignity.

i. celeste aurora

[witchzard]Aug 26, 2025

@faithisleaping , all of

We don't need fair-weather allies! We need allies who'll defend the trenches with us!

ChloChloaca Aug 26, 2025

@ics @faithisleaping

"We don't need allies; we need accomplices." -my (amazing) therapist

i. celeste aurora

[witchzard]Aug 26, 2025

@CordiallyChloe @faithisleaping 🥹🥹

Rachel Aug 26, 2025

@faithisleaping

What about the teenage girl-shaped person who says they really wish they were a guy?This was me but I didn't say anything because it was the 90s and I had a sense of self preservation and era-induced internalized phobias

And now it is late enough that if I come out openlt I'll be the clockiest trans woman ever and in most cases I don't feel like I'd have enough support in general (I probably need to move.... But anyhow ....)

Faith, Purple haired feminist 🧋

people_hugging_purple

deilann v -0.2.1.

neodog_nom_verified

@faithisleaping the same folks argue if you're you should essentially never be allowed to transition if you're neurodivergent and folks eat that up too

Faith, Purple haired feminist 🧋

@deilann Yeah...

Faith, Purple haired feminist 🧋

@deilann Which again comes down to believing us, only where "us" here now includes all neurodivergant folks. They do the same things to autistic and ADHD kids. We tell our story and they tell us we're lying and then try to gaslight us with some alternative narrative in which we're the villains.

Of course they look at an autistic person and say their gender isn't real. They don't believe us about anything else. Why would they believe us about that?

deilann v -0.2.1.

neodog_nom_verified

@faithisleaping

i mean a lot of the narratives about trans men are we can't possibly be real because that's just our silly women brains becoming hysterical

bigots will literally find any reason trans people don't exist

but the real danger of these arguments is that they'll concede there are a few real trans people and they wouldn't deny that

they just deny that every person who tells them they're trans is and there's always a reason that'll work!

they just don't think trans people exist but need a motte for their bailey

Faith, Purple haired feminist 🧋

@deilann Yup. I mean it's exactly the same thing my mom did when I came out. Every argument she made came down to some variation of, "But couldn't you just be less trans?" My transition made her uncomfortable and she was reaching for something to get me to bend to improve her comfort.

I thought about tossing in something about clocky trans women and something about trans men (though I wasn't sure what) at the end of that post because, really, what they're looking for is one narrow narrative they can feel comfortable supporting in theory while they deny the rest of us. I just didn't because I want keep it focused.

deilann v -0.2.1.

neodog_nom_verified

@faithisleaping

the wanting to keep it focused is also the problem with hot swap arguments like this, where you can always just throw in yet another exhausting "reason"

constantly being asked to prove your own existence is fucking exhausting no matter how ridiculous the "allegations" are or even obviously spurious

Faith, Purple haired feminist 🧋

@deilann That's fair. My intention was to focus on the "listen to people" part. But there are plenty of people who will "support" trans kids and then guide their own (possibly trans) child away from the clocky trans woman in the grocery store out of fear.

At the end of the day, it's all of us (including detransitioners and those in hiding) or none of us and we know which the bigots would prefer.

deilann v -0.2.1.

neodog_nom_verified

@faithisleaping all these arguments honestly boil down to "listen to people" so it's a good take away in general

the reason "trans person X" can't possibly know who they are is (insert excuse here) which is rebutted by "have you considered listening to people?"

deilann v -0.2.1.

neodog_nom_verified

@faithisleaping oh, i totally forgot how shrier is a really good example of how this is all really an extension of how people treat kids

in her horrible book, she goes on about how she knows trans people exist and will refer to trans adults by their correct pronouns (she then goes on to as far as anyone can know from the details she gives, misgender every child in the book)

but

the definition of adult keeps getting stretched to the point that she's referring to adults in college in the way she pinky-promised she'd only refer to kids

our transness itself becomes proof of our immaturity

the only folks she genders correctly in the book are those who have some modicum of power/influence and folks can just look up to find out how laughable it would be to misgender them because like they have major YouTube channels and shit

Faith, Purple haired feminist 🧋

It's entirely a power game.They'll properly gender those it costs them something to misgender. Maybe that something is just looking silly ("OMG! How could you think that person is a dude!") or it could be because that person has some amount of power. It's not because they're actually a decent human being who treats people with dignity.

See also every interaction with my parents. I intentionally came out to my siblings first to build a coalition so that by the time I came out to my parents the power dynamics in the family were in my favor. Worked a treat! They still don't believe or support me but they know better than to be total dipshits about it.

But part of why kids are such a canary is because they don't have that power.

Trans men often fall into that category, too. Sure, the dudes on instagram who've spent 3 years in the gym might get believed. But the young guy who's not even on T yet? Nope.

Li ~ Crystal System Aug 26, 2025

@deilann @faithisleaping

if i may, and am not putting this where it doesn't belong, i'd some experiences from being a system;

In general, a fuckton of people, will admit that DID is a real thing, but that (every single system they encounter) must not be a 'real system' .. and better yet, actively invalidating and refusing to acknowledge who we are is somehow good to help the 'real systems' that totally exist- but whom no one actually is.

and will have a constructed ideal in their mind about the "perfect system" that is, impossible for anyone to ever actually acheive.

anyway- i feel like a simular thing here happens with trans people,

Faith, Purple haired feminist 🧋

@deilann I've had a going mental model for a while that being trans is just another form of neurodivergance. Your brain got wired different and you ended up with a different gender. Woops! 🤷🏻‍♀️

There are problems with thinking about it that way, for sure. But it falls in the exact same bucket of "This should be no big deal. Just give the kid the right meds and don't treat them like trash."

Jacqueline Aug 26, 2025

@faithisleaping @deilann I think of being trans as a form of NDness

Riley S. Faelan Aug 26, 2025

@faithisleaping Yep! This fits.

In a sense, transitude is even one of the luckier neurodivergences, because it's one of the ones for which a good medicine exists.

Cat!Aug 26, 2025

@faithisleaping @deilann "You're a member of a group known to be uncomfortable with lying therefore you must be lying" sure is a claim they make and expect to be taken seriously.

And are taken seriously. WTF.

Faith, Purple haired feminist 🧋

@Catriona @deilann When person or group X makes you uncomfortable, just say they're lying and try to convince all your cis neurotypical friends that you know better than the person actually having the experience. Always a solid plan!

I mean, they've been doing it to women for millennia. 😠

Riley S. Faelan Aug 26, 2025

@faithisleaping The pattern is, they believe in conserving the ideas made by Teh Conservatives about Normal People and Supremacy of Those With No Labels.

Riley S. Faelan Aug 26, 2025

@faithisleaping

It's only permissible for the conservatives to radically change the government! The radical reformist ribelars are only permitted to conservate the changes that the previous conservative government wrought!

Used to be enforced by selective media outrage and such; nowadays, it's kind of open in SCOTUS rulings.

andrea-smandrea Oct 2, 2025

@deilann @faithisleaping shit, sometimes people don’t even believe us when we say we’re autistic. i haven’t been officially diagnosed (can’t afford it) but i’ve taken enough self-tests to know, and my mother, who knew me better than anyone, couldn’t get on board. tbh, i think it was her inability to deal with her own neurodivergence that made her react that way.

Random Damage 🌻Aug 26, 2025

@deilann @faithisleaping and, of course, they will then define being trans as a form of neurodivergence.

They really just don't want anyone to transition, ever.

Maggie Maybe Oct 2, 2025

@deilann @faithisleaping Not to add my cis stuff to this thread that isn’t about me, but they also do this to childfree women like me who would rather be dead than pregnant.

They refused to believe that someone with female parts wouldn’t want to grow and birth a baby more than anything else in life, so I was told my whole life that I just didn’t know what I wanted and that I would regret it later. And because of that I was unable to get sterilized until I was almost 40 years old, After birth control pills made me suicidal for years, and after a couple terminations.

Faith, Purple haired feminist 🧋

@maggiejk @deilann Yup! It's absolutely the same thing. It's fundamentally about bodily autonomy and listening to people instead of saying, "I know better because I'm older/neurotypical/whatever."

verified_transgender

@faithisleaping they know that it will hurt us. that's the point. they know we won't be able to pass as easily. that's the point. and they might well know that this is based on bullshit assumptions and that the brain keeps changing throughout our lives, but they want to undermine bodily autonomy for everyone and this is merely one step in that direction and it needs for great precedent, because if you can ban this for everyone under 25 , what other things can you ban?

verified_transgender

@faithisleaping I'm not gonna believe for one second that the people that think you're old enough to be sent to kill people abroad at 18, but not old enough to make decisions for yourself until 25 are not making this argument in good faith and in fact just think you shouldn't be allowed to make decisions period.

@faithisleaping

More pain doesn't fix it.Please tell me this was intentional.

Deborah Pickett Aug 26, 2025

@raeve @faithisleaping I came here to praise the bread pun.

@faithisleaping some of my observations:
- these people couldn't possibly know what it feels like biologically to be trans since their body produces sex hormones at levels compatible with their brain
- for the same reason anyone who mistakenly starts HRT would feel like total shit and likely stop after a few weeks
- the aversion to HRT for trans kids is part of the broader idea that anyone under 18 is completely incapable of self-responsibility, popular even in (right-)libertarian groups

*...*

*...*

- it is extremely hard to persuade these people to reconsider their views at all even when presented with fairly solid scientific research and data on trans physiology, GAHT safety, rate of regret, effects on mental health, etc.

- religion is a huge influence, and i've lost count of how many times bible verses related to *homosexuality* have been extrapolated to trans people by the 'christian taliban'

*...*

*...*

- the concept of nonbinary can be hard to explain to people of all political groups because of how much 'western' culture emphasizes the binary and gender roles, and terminology around nonbinary people (and queers in general) is kind of a mess

- there is of course the idea that kids are being "indoctrinated" or "groomed" which is ridiculous because being trans *sucks* and i at least would not want anyone to have to experience it

*...*

*...*

- it is however absolutely critical that people of all ages be given the opportunity to learn what trans people are, and should they realize they are trans have support through it since it really does *suck*

- anti-trans people really should practice what they preach and not respond to being offended by infringing on our first amendment rights or inflicting violence on us

- it is important we stand our ground, but don't stoop to their level and try to silence rather than challenge them

a couple things i forgot to add:

- cis people have been doing HRT for a variety of reasons over the past decades and it has been shown to be quite safe, particularly when done under medical supervision

- as usual the only thing governments are doing by enacting bans is forcing trans people to resort to gray market drugs ('DIYing') which is far less safe and effective

Riley S. Faelan Aug 26, 2025

@crispycat There's a cognitive style strongly correlated with right-wing ... er, thinking: not thinking about connections of concepts and phenomena and facts, but instead repeating packets of dogma made up by other people. And when a mind just doesn't follow connections and has no mechanism to independently check the validity of a Knowledge Packet, it's pretty hard to convince that mind to discard a dogma merely because it doesn't fit with well-supported facts.

Riley S. Faelan Aug 26, 2025

@crispycat Well, for the most part. Biology Is Messy, And Sometimes There's Exceptions. One of these exceptions is, in rare cases, a trans person's brain can prefer cross-gender hormonal environment.

It's very uncommon, and in times of widespread transphobia, such people might be particularly hard to spot in statistics, but these details shouldn't be taken to invalidate this rare way of having a gender.

@faithisleaping

Moriel 🏳️‍⚧️Aug 26, 2025

@faithisleaping

i cannot spread this far enough or boost it loudly enough!

Moriel 🏳️‍⚧️Aug 26, 2025

@faithisleaping

Hey, i've got an idea! OK, so the brain isn't fully formed before age 25, huh? And that means people shouldn't be allowed to make major changes in their lives before then, huh? So.

No getting married before age 25.
No getting a job before age 25.
No being in the military before age 25.
No being confirmed in any church or religion before age 25.

What else should be forbidden in the interest of "protecting the children"?

Irina Aug 26, 2025

@moriel @faithisleaping The internet, of course.

Moriel 🏳️‍⚧️Aug 26, 2025

@irina @faithisleaping

They are already doing that for minors (age of majority varying from country to country), at least for certain websites, so this isn't so unlikely.

Riley S. Faelan Aug 26, 2025

@moriel No playing tennis before age 25. After all, it leaves marks on your bones that archæologists will clearly be able to tell when they dig up the skeleton in a thousand years!

Inter-arm bone mass and size asymmetries in children tennis players are maturity status specific: a 9-month study on the effects of training time across pubertal change and somatic growth

[...]

All bone asymmetries were substantial. Tennis-induced bone gains were higher at pre- to early puberty in girls and at early to mid/late puberty in boys. Training enhanced mostly bone mass and maturity status enhanced mostly bone size; sex was not bone-change modeling impactful. Implications are discussed considering certain limitations.

(Source: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11199266/.)

@faithisleaping

Inter-arm bone mass and size asymmetries in children tennis players are maturity status specific: a 9-month study on the effects of training time across pubertal change and somatic growth

Bone growth with exercise is best assessed by tennis-induced inter-arm asymmetries. Yet, the effects of training and maturation across puberty were unclear. This study explored arm bone growth across 9 months of training in 46 tennis players ...

PubMed Central (PMC)

Faith, Purple haired feminist 🧋

@riley @moriel And definitely don't put your daughters in dance or gymnastics or let your sons play football.

2something Aug 26, 2025

@faithisleaping @riley @moriel My mom put me in gymnastics as a kid and it turned me trans.

Riley S. Faelan Aug 26, 2025

@faithisleaping A fun tidbit of Terf Island's history is, once upon a time, its government mandated, on a gender-selective basis, doing things that would change kids' skeletons — archery practice.

And for modern archæologists, the results have become basic trivia:

Of the 179 skeletons recovered since the ship was raised in 1982, 92 were fairly complete, like this one. All were male and the youngest were only 13 years old.

The bones also reveal the healed fractures, broken noses and arrow wounds that would have been part of life on a warship at that turbulent time. This man’s skeleton shows that he was an archer – he had os acromiale, a condition caused by stress on the arm and shoulder muscles from repeatedly shooting arrows.

(Source: https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn23629-raised-from-the-depths-the-face-of-the-mary-rose/.)

Britain's Archery Mandate

Do Englishmen still have to show up for longbow practice?

Forbes

SidheWolf Aug 26, 2025

@moriel @faithisleaping this reveals the moving goal post because this entire concern trolling for the children is complete bullshit because the obvious answer is to make the medicine better, not ban it, and the biggest threat that they can identify is that they will punish trans people with catastrophic medical neglect and social abuse if it doesn’t work out perfectly. “don’t make us hurt you, you’ll regret it” is not an ethical argument to protect kids

Pam C Aug 26, 2025

@moriel @faithisleaping No Sex, not even with themselves before age 25
No Driving before 25
No seeing an 18 film until they are 25
No voting before age 25 (or standing for election)

Maggie Maybe Oct 2, 2025

@moriel @faithisleaping they passed some gross anti-trans bills in New Hampshire this year. They claim they’re saving children by prohibiting trans kids from having breast augmentation or puberty blockers, but if the kid is cis they can get some DD implants, and puberty blockers are safe if they have precocious puberty. So it’s obviously not about saving kids at all.

Furthermore, we were able to finally outlaw child marriage effective 1/1/25, but before the end of January a republican woman sponsored a bill to bring it back if a man wanted to marry a child & if that man was in the military.

It’s not about “saving kids”.

Faith, Purple haired feminist 🧋

@maggiejk @moriel Nope. Never has been. It's about control and misogyny.

Jax UK Aug 26, 2025

@faithisleaping

I knew I was cis even if I didn’t know the language to express it, as far back into my childhood as I can remember. I don’t understand why anyone would think it should be different for trans people.

Riley S. Faelan Aug 26, 2025

@faithisleaping Sometimes, I suspect arguments like this are a subtle invocation of blatant Double Bind.

I mean — consider that the argument is an obvious case of cruelty being intended, but covered up by a "serious-sounding" "justification" — but the Rules of Respectability prohibit a Serious Person from saying that the "justification" is bogus — and if he can't say it, he must pretend it's valid, invent new "reasonings" to protect the bogus justification, and then cherish these inventions because they're "his".

Understanding the Double Bind Theory in Systemic Psychotherapy – Changes.ie – Counselling & Psychotherapy – Brian O’Sullivan

Riley S. Faelan Aug 26, 2025

@faithisleaping Apology;the second link is wrong. It was supposed to go to an article explaining the IKEA Effect (of psychology). I'll fix it in a bit.

Riley S. Faelan Aug 26, 2025

@faithisleaping https://thedecisionlab.com/biases/ikea-effect is the correct link.

IKEA effect - The Decision Lab

The IKEA effect is a cognitive bias that helps explains why people place higher value on things they helped to build or create.

The Decision Lab

Rachel Aug 26, 2025

@faithisleaping my understanding is that most of these studies stopped at a certain age or after a certain time.

Did those brain studies stop tacking people in their 20s due to practical limits?

Similar bit where we get bits that say trans breast growth is mostly within the first 3 years.... The big study backing it only tracked people for that long because it has to end sometime!

Rachel Aug 26, 2025

@faithisleaping
Also...

What if someone regretted transitioning is a very cis-centric stance. What if a trans person regrets not transitioning? Not doing a thing is also a choice, change is constant no matter we like it or not and delaying transition or closeting is very much also a choice that can be a bad one that a person comes to regret