Mastodawn

*Read it and weep*

We caffeinists have been reveling in the science news about caffeine interfering with your chances of getting dementia.
But I don’t think “it’s all good”, to use that smarmy phrase.

For a while now, I’ve been tracking my sleep with a smart watch, and my deep sleep per night has been consistently subpar: <=30 min.

But yesterday? A natural experiment. Because of a funeral, I had no caffeine within 12 hours of bedtime, and I got 50 minutes of deep sleep, which is pretty decent.

Yes, I know, one case isn’t a trend, but I see lots of verbiage on the Net saying you should abstain from caffeine for 6-8 hours before bedtime to get decent deep sleep. I haven’t found a good scientific paper yet that focuses on this only, but I’m looking.

1/2

Lew Perin Feb 15

Why should deep sleep be uniquely sensitive among all sleep stages to the caffeine you consumed in the afternoon? It makes intuitive sense when you consider that deep sleep almost always takes place during the first hour or two after your head hits the pillow. That is to say, deep sleep is the sleep stage closest to when you swallowed that caffeinated beverage.

2/2

Lew Perin Feb 20

> deep sleep and caffeine

Hmm. This, from a de jure authoritative source, makes me wonder how much science knows about the need for deep sleep. I mean, if old people can do without its restorative effect, then what is it even for? Old people don’t outgrow the need to breathe or eat.

«How do our patterns of sleep change as we age?
The patterns and types of sleep change as people mature. For example, newborns spend more time in REM sleep. The amount of slow-wave sleep peaks in early childhood and then drops sharply in the teenage years. Slow-wave sleep continues to decrease through adulthood, and older people may not have any slow-wave sleep at all.»

https://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/sleep/stages-of-sleep

@teaformeplease

Sleep Phases and Stages

Learn about how sleep works and the stages and phases of sleep your body goes through.

NHLBI, NIH

@babelcarp @tea This is completely anecdotal, but I have experience supporting your suspicions. In my case, because I'm very sensitive to caffeine I rarely have it anywhere near bedtime, but on intermittent occasions during the last year, have had late evening martial arts activities for which I've deliberately caffeinated. I'm no spring chicken, and less that 8 hrs sleep was wrecking me for days afterwards - because I absolutely could not drop into deep sleep all night. I wasn't sure if it was the workout, or the caffeine.

I finally tried soldiering through without the coffee (long boring story, I can only have 1 cup of tea a day because of the oxalates). After 3 trials of this I can attest that my sleep was much better, and I am functional in the morning despite only 6 hrs of it.

Lew Perin Feb 15

@AnnieG Right, I think it’s useful to be aware of deep sleep as a distinct thing even if the only attribute of sleep you are able to *measure* is total duration.

rustacean_ferris

@babelcarp @AnnieG One of my ADHD traits (despite not qualifying for a diagnosis) is that I'm immune to caffeine. I usually have my last tea a couple of hours before bedtime and my sleep never suffers. On one hand I'm happy I can enjoy my tea, on the other hand I envy those people who have something that can keep them awake when they have to, while I have to rely on stress for that purpose (it works though).

@vivia
I'm in a similar boat, so it's a suggestion - have you tried any guarana containig drinks?
To me it works too well, at times to the level that I need to counter it with a benzodiazepine drops to finally fall asleep.

@babelcarp @AnnieG @tea

Lew Perin Feb 15

@gemelen No, and what you said doesn’t entice me to try!

@vivia @AnnieG @tea

rustacean_ferris

@gemelen Uh... I think I'd agree with @babelcarp , but maybe next time I urgently need to stay awake I'll consider it 😅 Thanks!
@AnnieG @tea

@vivia @babelcarp

Yep, it's a strong _shit_ for the people with a particular type of brain/body chemistry.

Funnily, the Uruguayan Ministry of Health is more concerned with the sugars in such a drink than with the guarana.

And to add another thing to compare - the real coca leaves infusion that one might have in Peru (in my case in Cusco) affects your brain less than it, but helps you to endure moving your body around at the 3+ km elevation.

Lew Perin Feb 15

@gemelen I thought you were in Uruguay. Have you moved?

@babelcarp
No, still here.
There was a more happy moment about two years ago which I used to go to Peru for a week.

@vivia whereas I'm hypersensitive, and it doesn't wear off for much longer than it seems to last for others. With all the medical/pharma advances we're having, I'm hoping it won't be long before we have something like narcan but for caffeine. That, or short-acting stimulants calibrated for very specific duration.

@babelcarp @tea

Lew Perin Feb 15

@AnnieG Yeah, I’d like that, with no side effects, please!🙃

@babelcarp while useful, it's not necessarily pleasant (to be somehow aware, for the entire night, that you're NOT sleeping deeply)!

João Pinheiro Feb 15

@babelcarp @tea Remember also that smartwatches are determining deep sleep by correlation with movement and heart rate data, not from reading the brainwaves required to accurately determine sleep phases. The results can be a good indication of how much deep sleep you’re getting compared to your regular baseline but not for absolute time values.

Lew Perin Feb 15

@joaop Yes, that’s a good point.