ProtestationProtestation
Geobloke
chewablesgenuinely questioning here, as an outside party: you think China, the biggest manufacturer in the world, is anticapitalist?
I am a big dumb so may have misunderstood but that was my big takeaway from that
Cowbee [he/they]Why do you believe manufacturing to be incompatible with socialism? In the PRC, public ownership, not private, is the principle aspect of the economy, and the working classes control the state. This is recognized as socialist.
Perhaps my understanding of modern-day China is incorrect, which is why I asked because I actually would like to know more. I’m not trying to begin an internet argument, though it’s clear at least a few people find it easier to click down arrow than provide requested information and actually educate fellow human being.
I’m not claiming that manufacturing can’t be owned by the public, but from what I know of the current state of the world, China mass produces basically everything and this forms a not insignificant portion of the world economy; though I have doubts as to whether socialism is truly in place or it’s really just red capitalism, class wars and all. Granted, my knowledge is limited so I’m open to further information on this
I’m not trying to argue with you, just see more where you’re coming from, what your present understanding of socialism and China in particular is, etc, so that I can help bridge the gap. For clarity, I’m a Marxist-Leninist, I study theory and organize in real life (though less than I’d like to admit, which is something I’m working on).
The PRC does mass produce a huge portion of the world’s goods, yes. This alone isn’t incompatible with either capitalism or socialism. China has a private sector, largely relegated to small/medium firms, and secondary, ie not critical or key industries. The public sector governs the large firms and key industries, including finance.
Even checking Wikipedia, data from 2022 shows that the overwhelming majority of the top companies are publicly owned SOEs. This is China’s strategy, they’ve been honest about it from the beginning. The private sector is about half cooperatives like Huawei or farming cooperarives and sole proprietorships, with the other half being small and medium firms. As these grow, they are folded into the public sector gradually. This is China’s Socialist Market Economy.
China’s relation with the world market came into being as a result of Reform & Opening Up, which agreed to foreign investment as long as the PRC retained sovereignty over the invested capital, and technology and knowledge transfer was mandatory. This is the secret to stablizing their growth, which was positive but unstable under Mao and the Gang of Four, as the PRC was developing from a largely agrarian economy to an industrialized one:
Class struggle does continue in socialism. The idea that it ends is one of the reasons the USSR liberalized towards the end and dissolved. China’s market reforms were made not with blindness to their danger, but with control and containment, often described as a “birdcage model.” In this way, the proletariant retains dominance over the state and the commanding heights of industry, while capitalists largely exist purely to facilitate the beneficial aspects of markets, such as rapid development of underdeveloped industry. As these firms grow, they are folded and integrated more into the public sector.
As for the state being run by the working classes, this is also pretty straightforward. Public ownership is the principle aspect of the economy, and the CPC, a working class party, dominates the state. At a democratic level, local elections are direct, while higher levels are elected by lower rungs. At the top, constant opinion gathering and polling occurs, gathering public opinion, driving gradual change. This system is better elaborated on in Professor Roland Boer’s Socialism in Power: On the History and Theory of Socialist Governance, and we can see the class breakdown of the top of the government itself:
Overall, this system has resulted in over 90% of the population approving the government, which is shown to be consistent and accurate. If you want to learn more Roland Boer also has a good book called Socialism with Chinese Characteristics: A Guide for Foreigners, which is more specifically about the PRC and goes beyond the structures of governance to the more broad system of socialism in China. While not nearly as in-depth due to time limits as Roland Boer’s work (and mostly focused on the Xi Jinping era), Red Pen’s A Summary of Xi Jinping’s Governance of China can be a good primer! There’s also This is how China’s economic model works: Explaining Socialism with Chinese Characteristics by Geopolitical Economy Report.
Thank you, sincerely, for providing such a detailed response and taking the time to educate me on this topic. I appreciate it :)
No problem! As a tiny addendum, if you’re interested in Marxism-Leninism at a general level, and not how it’s specifically used in China, I wrote an introductory reading list you can check out if you want!
Read Theory, Darn it! An Introductory Reading List for Marxism-Leninism - Lemmy
“Without Revolutionary theory, there can be no Revolutionary Movement.” — Vladimir Lenin, What is to be Done? [http://www.marx2mao.com/Lenin/WD02.html] | Audiobook [https://tankie.tube/w/seGAATanGtfufEkQoLH1X3] It’s time to read theory, comrades! As Lenin says, “Despair is typical of those who do not understand the causes of evil, see no way out, and are incapable of struggle.” Marxism-Leninism is broken into 3 major components, as noted by Lenin in his pamphlet The Three Sources and Three Component Parts of Marxism [http://www.marx2mao.com/Lenin/CPM13.html]: | Audiobook [https://tankie.tube/w/8yUvkgJ4m5ZHPdESAyjg8k] 1. Dialectical and Historical Materialism 2. Critique of Capitalism along the lines of Marx’s Law of Value 3. Advocacy for Revolutionary and Scientific Socialism As such, I created the following list to take you from no knowledge whatsoever of Leftist theory, and leave you with a strong understanding of the critical fundamentals of Marxism-Leninism in an order that builds up as you read. Let’s get started! Section I: Getting Started What the heck is Communism, anyways? For that matter, what is fascism? 1. Friedrich Engels’ Principles of Communism [http://www.marx2mao.com/M&E/PC47.html] | Audiobook [https://tankie.tube/w/8JtpMuYQ6Ho6gzYtLLuL4k] The FAQ of Communism, written by the Luigi of the Marx & Engels duo. Quick to read, and easy to reference, this is the perfect start to your journey. 2. Michael Parenti’s Blackshirts and Reds [https://c.encryptionin.space/epubs/blackshirts-and-reds/] | Audiobook [https://tankie.tube/w/uZFGgeJsE4bHHBTd1m3eFK] Parenti’s characteristic wit is on full display in this historical contextualization and analysis of fascism and Communism. Line after line, Parenti debunks anti-Communist myths. This is also an excellent time to watch the famous “Yellow Parenti” [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xP8CzlFhc14] speech. Section II: Historical and Dialectical Materialism Ugh, philosophy? Really? YES! 3. Georges Politzer’s Elementary Principles of Philosophy [https://c.encryptionin.space/epubs/elementary-principles-of-philosophy/] | Audiobook [https://tankie.tube/w/wv44hU6NjoLgn6yrnXBQjc] By understanding Dialectical and Historical Materialism first, you make it easier to understand the rest of Marxism-Leninism. Don’t be intimidated! 4. Friedrich Engels’ Socialism: Utopian and Scientific [http://www.marx2mao.com/M&E/SUS80.html] | Audiobook [https://tankie.tube/w/nhVVanPX5WPVor7Yy7TDrp?start=3h13m40s] Engels introduces Scientific Socialism, explaining how Capitalism itself prepares the conditions for public ownership and planning by centralizing itself into monopolist syndicates and cartels. Section III: Political Economy That’s right, it’s time for the Law of Value and a deep-dive into Imperialism. If we are to defeat Capitalism, we must learn it’s mechanisms, tendencies, contradictions, and laws. 5. Karl Marx’s Wage Labor and Capital [http://www.marx2mao.com/M&E/WLC47.html] | Audiobook [https://tankie.tube/w/nhVVanPX5WPVor7Yy7TDrp?start=1h35m58s] & Wages, Price and Profit [http://www.marx2mao.com/M&E/WPP65.html] | Audiobook [https://youtube.com/watch?v=TjhVZW3HJzM] Best taken as a pair, these essays simplify the most important parts of the Law of Value. 6. Vladimir Lenin’s Imperialism, The Highest Stage of Capitalism [http://www.marx2mao.com/Lenin/IMP16.html] | Audiobook [https://tankie.tube/w/8STrUAEfwiFGRFcRsSNqtv] The era of Imperialism, which as the primary contradiction cascades downward into all manner of related secondary contradictions. Section IV: Revolutionary and Scientific Socialism Can we defeat Capitalism at the ballot box? What about just defeating fascism? What about the role of the state? 7. Rosa Luxemburg’s Reform or Revolution [https://www.marxists.org/archive/luxemburg/1900/reform-revolution/] | Audiobook [https://tankie.tube/w/k5tp58hyGPpTRUtpB79Kra] If Marxists believed reforming Capitalist society was possible, we would be the first in line for it. Sadly, it isn’t. 8. Vladimir Lenin’s The State and Revolution [http://www.marx2mao.com/Lenin/SR17.html] | Audiobook [https://tankie.tube/w/6M8bL2HGs5rGXmvThU1JG5] Further analyzes the necessity of Revolution and introduces the economic basis for the withering away of the State. Section V: National Liberation, De-colonialism, and Solidarity The revolution will not be fought by individuals, but by an intersectional, international working class movement. Solidarity allows different marginalized groups to work together in collective interest, unifying into a single broad movement. Marxists support the Right of Self-Determination for all peoples and support National Liberation movements against Imperialism. 9. Vikky Storm & Eme Flores’ The Gender Accelerationist Manifesto [https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/vikky-storm-the-gender-accelerationist-manifesto] | (No Audiobook yet) Breaks down misogyny, and queerphobia, as well as how to move beyond the base subject of “gender” from a Historical Materialist perspective. 10. Leslie Feinberg’s Lavender & Red [https://www.workers.org/book/lavender-red/] | Audiobook [https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXUFLW8t2snsEPC7kkMKkZf-45FrnJTO7] When different social groups fight for liberation together along intersectional lines, they are emboldened and empowered ever-further. 11. Frantz Fanon’s The Wretched of the Earth [https://archive.org/details/the-wretched-of-the-earth] | Audiobook [https://tankie.tube/w/p/f3tK7UC2HAK1WLUNg4yVen] & Paulo Freire’s Pedagogy of the Oppressed [https://archive.org/details/FreirePedagogyOfTheOppresed] | Audiobook [https://tankie.tube/w/koxxesz38QPVKaAFr8iVTF] De-colonialism is essential to Marxism. Without having a strong, de-colonial, internationalist stance, we have no path to victory nor justice. These books are best taken as a pair, read in quick succession. Section VI: Putting it into Practice! It’s not enough to endlessly read, you must put theory to practice. That is how you can improve yourself and the movements you support. Touch grass! 12. Mao Tse-Tung’s On Practice [http://www.marx2mao.com/Mao/OP37.html] & On Contradiction [http://www.marx2mao.com/Mao/OC37.html] | Audiobook [https://tankie.tube/w/qnzYg56huhwgKYk9Py3mcR] Mao wrote simply and directly to peasant soldiers during the Revolutionary War in China. This pair of essays equip the reader to apply the analytical tools of Dialectical Materialism to their every day practice. 13. Vladimir Lenin’s “Left-Wing” Communism, an Infantile Disorder [http://www.marx2mao.com/Lenin/LWC20.html] | Audiobook [https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Wh84f8czc7g] Common among new leftists is dogmatism over pragmatism. Everyone wants perfection, but dogmatic “left” anti-Communists let perfection become the enemy of progress. 14. Jones Manoel’s Western Marxism Loves Purity and Martyrdom, But Not Real Revolution [https://blackagendareport.com/western-marxism-loves-purity-and-martyrdom-not-real-revolution] | (No Audiobook yet) Common among western leftists is fetishization of Marxism, rather than using it as a tool for analysis and social change. This article helps rectify that. 15. Liu Shaoqi’s How to be a Good Communist [https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/liu-shaoqi/1939/how-to-be/index.htm] | Audiobook [https://tankie.tube/w/kzi58GMjH9DzSBqz1eTXVb] Organizing is a skill. If we are to be successful, we must work to better ourselves. Congratulations, you completed your introductory reading course! With your new understanding and knowledge of Marxism-Leninism, here is a mini What is to be Done? of your own to follow, and take with you as practical advice. 1. Get organized. The Party for Socialism and Liberation [https://pslweb.org/], Freedom Road Socialist Organization [https://frso.org/], and Red Star Caucus [https://redstarcaucus.org/] all organize year round, every year, because the battle for progress is a constant struggle. See if there is a chapter near you, or start one! 2. Read theory. Don’t think that you are done now! Just because you have the basics, doesn’t mean you know more than you do. If you have not investigated a subject, don’t speak on it! 3. Aggressively combat white supremacy, misogyny, queerphobia, and other attacks on marginalized communities. Cede no ground, let nobody go forgotten. 4. Be industrious, and self-sufficient. Take up gardening, home repair, tinkering. It is through practice that you elevate your knowledge. 5. Learn self-defense. Get armed, if practical. Be ready to protect yourself and others. 6. Be persistent. If you feel like a single water droplet against a mountain, think of canyons and valleys. With consistency, every rock, boulder, mountain, can be drilled through with nothing but water droplets. “Everything under heaven is in utter chaos; the situation is excellent.” — Mao Tse-Tung Credits [https://lemmy.ml/comment/15046925]
You do realize you’re talking with a tankie, who just spouts CCP propaganda. China is run by authoritarians and they love the control…the workers do not own their labor in china like cowbee says… otherwise they wouldn’t be commiting suicide from slave conditions they’re in.
This is a communist community, it’s not surprising that there are communists here. China is run by the working classes, and has a lower suicide rate than the vast majority of capitalist countries. Labor rights in China are strong, and regularly improving. China isn’t perfect, but when judged in the context of their development over time and when compared to peers, they are doing incredibly well.
If you have a meaningful way to counter what I’ve said, do so. Don’t just spout easily disproven rhetoric like claiming China has a high suicide rate or slave labor conditions. It’s entirely unconvincing when you come in with no actual backing to your points, especially when my own were well-sourced and my stances transparent from the beginning.
ZeroHoraNo clue, honestly, it surprised me when I saw it too.