Quinn Norton
I'm so confused, I am a bear of little brain, can someone explain to me, in simply words... HOW THE FUCK DO YOU COOL A DATA CENTER IN SPACE
Feb 11 at 11:27pmWeb
Show threadmaya_b πŸ‡¨πŸ‡¦Feb 11

@quinn

fly it into the sun. it'll be cooler than that. it's all relative you see.

never mind powering it, or data links faster than 1Gbps reliably, or hardening it from cosmic and solar radiation (the faster the circuit and the smaller the process < 10nm vs > 90nm the ridiculously harder it is to protect).

Show threadmaya_b πŸ‡¨πŸ‡¦Feb 11

@quinn

general primer from a NASA scientist/engineer:
https://taranis.ie/datacenters-in-space-are-a-terrible-horrible-no-good-idea/

Datacenters in space are a terrible, horrible, no good idea.

There is a rush for AI companies to team up with space launch/satellite companies to build datacenters in space. TL;DR: It's not going to work.

Taranis
Show threadQuinn NortonFeb 11
@maya_b I hear computers looove cosmic waves, they make the computers so much more creative!
Show threadmaya_b πŸ‡¨πŸ‡¦Feb 11

@quinn

"creative" yes

Show threadQuinn NortonFeb 11
@maya_b 😬
Show threadmaya_b πŸ‡¨πŸ‡¦Feb 11

@quinn

random bit flips can be fun. mostly not, but sometimes

oh and outright burning out transistors - who needs transistors?

Show threadQuinn NortonFeb 11
@maya_b I don't even have a single one in my body right now!
Show threadmaya_b πŸ‡¨πŸ‡¦Feb 11

@quinn

fun times!

Show threadrk: it’s hyphen-minus actuallyFeb 11

@maya_b @quinn

mario64speedrun dot mpeg

Show threadpunIssuerFeb 12
@quinn @maya_b hardly an issue when running LLMs, though πŸ˜‡
Show threadOrange Lizard GirlthingFeb 12
@quinn @maya_b We can add true randomness to the believable shitty randomness generators! Think of the possibilities!
Show threadmaya_b πŸ‡¨πŸ‡¦Feb 12

@NaahraTheScaled

unfortunately they rarely flip to 0 and just get pushed to 1 or energized

@quinn

Show threadpunIssuerFeb 12
@NaahraTheScaled @quinn @maya_b that's fine. the randomness lies in which bits flip
Show threadOwen BlackerFeb 11

@quinn According to something I read somewhere a few days ago, with a shitload of radiative sausage atta that would make it wholly impractical in avoiding microcollisions.

And that's without considering the need to add protection to avoid bits being changed by solar radiation.

It's almost as though the apartheid emerald billionaire princeling isn't actually very clever. Or something.

Show threadbituur esztreymFeb 11
@quinn
maybe burning the billionnaires on earth and using this heat to produce needed cool?
just kidding (& wishful thinking i must say). i've not the slightest bit of an idea either..
Show threadbituur esztreymFeb 11

RE: https://mastodon.social/@kwyxz/116053711909940677

@quinn
additionnally, this just popped boosted in my TL minutes before your post: https://pouet.chapril.org/@kwyxz@mastodon.social/116053712164339631
`w;7[)

Show threadQuinn NortonFeb 11
@bituur_esztreym yikes πŸ˜‚
Show threadFear and Tooting in Las VegasFeb 11
@quinn Nihilists, Donnie.
Show threadQuinn NortonFeb 11
@steevmi1 Say what you want about the tenets of national socialism... or on second thought, don't.
Show threadMaxi 12x πŸ’‰Feb 11
@quinn Space is cold, no? I guess the cooling part would be the lesser issue.
Show threadMichaΕ‚ "rysiek" WoΕΊniak Β· πŸ‡ΊπŸ‡¦Feb 11

@frumble you need a medium for heat transfer and a *huge* area for radiating it away (since there is no heat transfer medium in space).

@quinn

Show threadMaxi 12x πŸ’‰Feb 11

@rysiek @quinn
So, even naked GPUs in outer space, unencapsulated, would just cook themselves, the heat won’t be engulfed by space at all?

https://social.circl.lu/@quinn/116054651911884306

Show threadQuinn NortonFeb 11
@frumble @rysiek not necessarily cook itself, there is *some* heat transfer in space, especially a busy place like and inner solar system. But modern computer components absolutely would toast themselves long before you really got much up and working. A whole datacenter? That's just absurd.
Show threadQuinn NortonFeb 12

@frumble @rysiek Here is a relevant paper: https://www.nasa.gov/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/473486main_iss_atcs_overview.pdf

I love this fucking nerd shit.

Show threadMichaΕ‚ "rysiek" WoΕΊniak Β· πŸ‡ΊπŸ‡¦Feb 12

@quinn @frumble yeah. There is simply nothing out there to "engulf" anything. Space is empty.

Think of it this way:

Air is a pretty bad heat transfer medium. Water is a much better heat transfer medium. If you could put a GPU directly in water it would cool faster. That's pretty intuitive.

Space is (basically) empty, it is not even comparable as a heat transfer medium to air, because well there is no medium.

Show threadEllipsis... πŸ‡¨πŸ‡¦Feb 12
@rysiek @quinn @frumble How I've explained this in the past: what do you use to keep a liquid hot for a long time? A vacuum bottle. What's space
composed of? Vacuum.
Show threadQuinn NortonFeb 12
@rysiek @frumble I mean, there is some. We're not talk interstellar medium empty, where Voyager 2 is now. but it says something that V2 went though a 50,000 C temperature zone, and matter was so dispersed that it was fine
Show threadMichaΕ‚ "rysiek" WoΕΊniak Β· πŸ‡ΊπŸ‡¦Feb 12

@quinn @frumble I said "basically". Compared to air or a body of water on Earth's surface, it is negligible.

And if we're nit picking, there is also thermal radiation. That's *technically* a method of cooling, and one that is used by the Hubble telescope (among others)!

Show threadEllipsis... πŸ‡¨πŸ‡¦Feb 12

@rysiek @quinn @frumble The author of this article did an estimation of the size of the radiator needed to cool a 1GW data center in space: 1.1 million m^2

https://www.chaotropy.com/why-jeff-bezos-is-probably-wrong-predicting-ai-data-centers-in-space/

Why Putting AI Data Centers in Space Doesn’t Make Much Sense

Jeff Bezos said gigawatt AI data centers will orbit Earth in 10 to 20 years. Thermodynamics makes this idea unfeasible. Without convection, waste heat must radiate through panels spanning millions of square metres. Add latency, radiation risks and costs.

Chaotropy
Show threadMichaΕ‚ "rysiek" WoΕΊniak Β· πŸ‡ΊπŸ‡¦Feb 12

@tobiaspatton @quinn @frumble yeah. These are not serious people. Nobody should be spending all this time taking their bullshit investor-targeting hype seriously.

Musk promised people on Mars "in a decade" over a decade ago. He promised robotaxis "within a decade" over a decade ago.

The guy promises people on Mars but can't get a drunken dude driven home.

Show threadAnne DelongFeb 12

@rysiek @tobiaspatton @quinn @frumble

Maybe the giant radiators would shade the earth...

Show threadMichaΕ‚ "rysiek" WoΕΊniak Β· πŸ‡ΊπŸ‡¦Feb 12

@Anne_Delong obligatory Simpsons reference:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjdMYyjnmks

@tobiaspatton @quinn @frumble

Have You Ever Seen The Sun Set At 3pm? (The Simpsons)

YouTube
Show threadEllipsis... πŸ‡¨πŸ‡¦Feb 12
@rysiek @quinn @frumble and yet the media continues to credulously repeat outlandish predictions from known liars. We have the institutional memory of a fruit fly.
Show threadQuinn NortonFeb 12
@tobiaspatton @rysiek @frumble LOL, at least that will put a dent in global warming πŸ˜‚
Show threadEricFeb 12

@quinn @frumble @rysiek

This artical goes into it a little.

https://taranis.ie/datacenters-in-space-are-a-terrible-horrible-no-good-idea/

The [ISS] thermal radiator panel system measures 13.6m x 3.12 m, i.e., roughly 42.5 square metres. If we use 200kW as a baseline and assume all of that power will be fed to GPUs, we'd need a system 12.5 times bigger, i.e., roughly 531 square metres, or about 2.6 times the size of the relevant solar array. This is now going to be a very large satellite, dwarfing the ISS in area, all for the equivalent of three standard server racks on Earth.

You would have to liquid cool the GPUs and then pipe the coolant to massive radiative cooling panels.

There is no way this would be cheaper or more practical then data center on earth.

But I suppose they have to line up the next grift for when the AI bubble pops.

Datacenters in space are a terrible, horrible, no good idea.

There is a rush for AI companies to team up with space launch/satellite companies to build datacenters in space. TL;DR: It's not going to work.

Taranis
Show threadPeter SommerladFeb 12

@eric @quinn @frumble @rysiek
it is all about inflating the valuation for the IPO.

see https://mastodon.social/@PeterSommerlad/116028605224882753

Show threadQuinn NortonFeb 11
@frumble Space isn't quite cold, for this purpose it's more empty. you need matter to transfer heat into a medium dense enough to allow heat to flow. Put something generating heat in a vacuum, and it will cook itself.
Show threadMichaΕ‚ "rysiek" WoΕΊniak Β· πŸ‡ΊπŸ‡¦Feb 11
@quinn also, replacing faulty hardware in earthbound datacenters is trivial. Replacing faulty hardware in orbit, uhhhhh.
Show threadQuinn NortonFeb 11
@rysiek that's easy, NOTHING IS EVER ALLOWED TO BREAK.
Show threadMichaΕ‚ "rysiek" WoΕΊniak Β· πŸ‡ΊπŸ‡¦Feb 11

@quinn ah fair. Well then we also have an answer to your question:

NOTHING IS EVER ALLOWED TO OVERHEAT!

Oof, that was simple!

Show threadbituur esztreymFeb 12
@rysiek @quinn
thanks to you both for saving us all!
Show threadQuinn NortonFeb 12
@bituur_esztreym @rysiek anytime, you can count on us. We're like the Spider-Man of Fediverse, for some weird reason there's too many of us.
Show threadMichaΕ‚ "rysiek" WoΕΊniak Β· πŸ‡ΊπŸ‡¦Feb 12

@quinn @bituur_esztreym

SPIDER-MEN ARE NOT ALLOWED TO BE TOO MANY!

There, I fixed it.

Show threadbituur esztreymFeb 12
@rysiek @quinn
yeah but now the world (wide & webby) counts on us to define "too many"..
Show threadEricFeb 12

@bituur_esztreym @rysiek @quinn

The Spider-Verse Fediverse!

Show threadKlasterinis BaubasFeb 11
@quinn you will not need cooling if you turn them on only during the night. easy
Show threadQuinn NortonFeb 11
@PogoHandshake by far the most cursed answer I've heard. I tip my hat at you, good sir.
Show threadDianeFeb 11

@quinn

There's an easy answer to this question.

You don't.

The computers exceedingly short lifespan will be decided in a race between being cooked by waste heat, being destroyed by radiation, or burning up in reentry.

Large data centers in Earth orbit is just bullshit being spewed to sound good to investors to keep his stock price from plummeting to Earth.

Here's someone more qualified saying no.

https://www.eetimes.com/the-hidden-physics-of-running-data-centers-in-orbit/

Show threadLee from ColoradoFeb 11
@quinn you don't. But that doesn't matter, what matters is heating up the planned IPO ...
Show threadDave Duchene (he/him)Feb 12
@quinn I love the idea of it being a stupid idea as much as the next person buuut, isn’t heat energy, and can’t data centres use that? (still leaves all the other barriers)
Show threadQuinn NortonFeb 12
@daveduchene That's not allowed by physics, by the time you get to that point, entropy takes its pound of flesh. You can use heat to turn a turbine, but it's a messy and inefficient process, even when you have the benefit of planetary resources. In space, it's much harder. Oh, I found a crash course! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2B81W6nNds0
Why We Can't Invent a Perfect Engine: Crash Course Engineering #10

YouTube
Show threadAdam DallianceFeb 12
@quinn A liquid droplet radiator. A lot more expensive and difficult than, say, just keeping your chips on earth and using a fan. Also risks coating all satellites in a thin film of coolant. But who cares about a bit of space pollution when you've got Kessler syndrome going on?
Show threadQuinn NortonFeb 12
@pre so the answer is "Badly and at great cost" πŸ˜‚
Show threadAdam DallianceFeb 12
@quinn Yes, but don't worry, the radiation hardening is going to be expensive too.
Show threadQuinn NortonFeb 12
@pre Man this habitable planet thing is looking better and better. Maybe we should concentrate on this really nice planet we have already, and not creating problems in space instead.
Show threadDave Wood πŸ‡¨πŸ‡¦Feb 12

@quinn it's difficult. But when the masses revolt against AI, the space based data centres will be harder to take out.

* Not my theory, just an interesting one I read elsewhere.

Show threadQuinn NortonFeb 12
@davewoodx data centers in space aren't very useful if the people who run them if they manage to collapse society, either from exploitation or inciting a rebellion. I'm beginning to think that paypal mafia isn't qualified to run the planet. πŸ€”
Show threadPoligofsky πŸ‡¨πŸ‡¦ .. πŸš«πŸ€–Feb 12
@quinn By putting it in a polar orbit! 🀣
Show threadan actual busFeb 12
@quinn the not-so-neat part is that it overheats and sustains fatal damage as a result, but we are not in a time of thinking that far ahead
Show threadJered FloydFeb 12
@quinn financial crimes, mostly