Mastodawn

'Canada, better the 28th EU member than the 51st US state'

https://mander.xyz/post/46887014

'Canada, better the 28th EU member than the 51st US state' - Mander

cross-posted from: https://mander.xyz/post/46886810 [https://mander.xyz/post/46886810] > The American president has invited Canada to become his country’s “51st state,” an idea that has infuriated most of Canada’s 40 million citizens. > > … > > Hence this suggestion: Why not expand the EU to include Canada? Is that so far-fetched an idea? In any case, Canadians have actually considered the question themselves. In February 2025, a survey conducted by Abacus Data on a sample of 1,500 people found that 44% of those polled supported the idea, compared to 34% who opposed it. Better the 28th EU country than the 51st US state! > > One might object: Canada is not European, as required for EU membership by Article 49 of the EU Treaty. But what does “European” actually mean? The word cannot be understood in a strictly geographic sense, or Cyprus, closer to Asia, would not be part of the EU. So the term must be understood in a cultural sense. > > … > > As [Canadian Prime Minister Mark] Carney said in Paris, in March: Thanks to its French and British roots, Canada is “the most European of non-European countries.” He speaks from experience, having served as governor of the Bank of England (a post that is assigned based on merit, not nationality). Culturally and ideologically, Canada is close to European democracies: It shares the same belief in the welfare state, the same commitment to multilateralism and the same rejection of the death penalty or uncontrolled firearms. > > Moreover, Canada is a Commonwealth monarchy that shares a king with the United Kingdom. > > … > > Even short of a formal application, it would be wiser for Ottawa to strengthen its ties with European democracies rather than with the Chinese regime. The temptation is there: Just before heading to Davos, Carney signed an agreement with Beijing to lower tariffs on electric vehicles imported from China. > > … > > Archive link [https://archive.ph/LXoVq]

Lemmyoutofhere Feb 5

agingelderly Feb 5

I’m already jealous of Canadians, to give them passport free travel and the option to move anywhere in Europe… fuuuuck me

id go live with my brother in germany for a while, id love to see the black forest and the old castles. or go look for some amber chunks in the water of the baltic sea.

The black forest is soooooo beautiful right now! But the castles and the beaches are better during summer.

Hope you get to experience some of it, but also hope it’ll be more of a vacation than seeking refuge.

BartyDeCanter Feb 6

I joined a Canada based company in the last year. Every time we chat abooot non-work stuff I find yet another reason to be envious of them.

Quick fun fact: Morocco considers itself European in a geographical sense, or at least they once did and applied for membership.

I don’t think Morocco is super European culturally though. There are values they very much disagree with most Europeans on, such as LGBTQ rights.

I have no issue with Morocco as a trade partner, or easy travel between Morocco and the EU, but I don’t think we’d like the vibes they’d bring to the European Parliament, etc.

There’s something to be gained from diversity of course, but I do think their society’s values are a bit too different from most of ours.

Well, since no one else considered them to be geographially European it is of little importance. But culture wise? Definitely not if you ask me. I see better chances for Turkey after some minor (read: major) shifts in politics.

Honestly, geographically I can see how they’d consider to be almost European. The strait of Gibraltar isn’t that wide, it’s a shorter distance for them to cross to Europe than it is for me to cross to Finland from Estonia!

CanadaPlus Feb 5

Being not 100% a democracy and having massive nationalistic tensions with an equally powerful neighbor is a pretty big pill to swallow, as well.

shawn1122 Feb 8

Having nationalistic tendencencies seems on par with many European countries today.

CanadaPlus Feb 8

Nationalistic tensions. As in, they’re locked in a long-term military rivalry with Algeria. Only Greece really falls into that category as far as I know.

Don’t take this badly but generally when people spout that “their society’s values are different from ours” about how countries like Morocco and Turkey wouldn’t be a fit for the EU what they really mean is “they’re Muslims”.

You haven’t see much of Europe if you think LGBTQ rights are looked at similarly all over.

My own native Portugal used to be pretty homophobic 30 years ago and there are still plenty of people around who think like that even though the country’s culture tends towards perceptiveness rather than judgement.

Or just go to Hungary outside a main city and ask people what they think about Transexuality.

Frankly whenever I look at a country like Turkey or Morocco I mainly see my own country, Greece or even Spain 50 or 60 years ago, with pretty similar values - though a different main religion - and average levels of education. Pretty backwards by today’s standards, but one can hardly claim they weren’t European.

The main problem with Morocco is as others pointed out it not being properly Democratic, the whole problem of Western Sahara and its self-determination, the huge wealth-imbalance between it and the EU (read: fear of mass immigration from there) and European Islamophobes (which, given the massive is not limited to the European far-right).

You’re not wrong. I don’t think a 99.whatever percent Muslim country would be a good culture fit. I would in fact say the same about majority-Christian or majority-Jewish countries if they’re taking their religion a bit too seriously. In fact I’m slightly worried about how religious some EU countries are, such as Poland.

The thing is that some of these Islamic countries still take the religion too seriously, much more so than most of us “westerners” (USA being a notable exception but hey I don’t think they’d be a good cultural fit for EU either).

There’s pretty liberal majority-Muslim countries out there and it’s quite possible that Morocco and Turkey will also get there.

My own native Portugal used to be pretty homophobic 30 years ago and there are still plenty of people around who think like that even though the country’s culture tends towards perceptiveness rather than judgement.

Same for Estonia, we’re pretty accepting nowadays (with exceptions of course) and hell even 15-20 years ago it was very different. And yes, this was when we were already in the EU.

But LGBTQ rights were just one example. There’s also insane laws surrounding alcohol (though mostly don’t affect you if you’re not born in Morocco and don’t consume in public, the laws are particularly draconian for Moroccan Muslims and yes, they discriminate by religion).

Overall I just don’t think any society that still lets religion dictate how people have to live has a place in the EU. Which doesn’t mean I dislike Muslims in particular. I don’t want people of ANY religion telling me their god has any say in how other people have to live. Religion is fine, but secularism is needed.

And yes, there are the other issues you mentioned. In fact once some of those are taken care of, it’s quite likely that their society will also become more liberal naturally.

UnderpantsWeevil Feb 5

Turkiye has been waiting in line for EU membership since the 1987

After the ten founding members in 1949, Turkey became one of the first new members (the 13th member) of the Council of Europe in 1950. The country became an associate member of the European Economic Community (EEC) in 1963 and was an associate member of the Western European Union from 1992 to its end in 2011. Turkey signed a Customs Union agreement with the EU in 1995 and was officially recognised as a candidate for full membership on 12 December 1999, at the Helsinki summit of the European Council.

But… Turkiye’s a majority Muslim country. So Portugal, Spain, Austria, Finland, Sweden, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Malta, Poland, Slovakia, Slovenia, Bulgaria, Romania, and Croatia all got to jump the queue ahead of it.

Accession of Turkey to the European Union - Wikipedia

Eh, I think it’s less about being Muslim and more about the human rights violations.

UnderpantsWeevil Feb 5

Explain the introduction of Cyprus, on those terms

Mubelotix Feb 5

Real real bad example, as Cyprus was literaly invaded and is currently militarily occupied by Turkey

UnderpantsWeevil Feb 5

How dirty money and Russian riches flow through Cyprus, a gateway to the EU

Possibly one of the most corrupt and compromised governments on earth

How dirty money and Russian riches flow through Cyprus, a gateway to the EU

Tax advantages. Golden visas. Judicial leniency. The Cyprus Confidential investigation by Le Monde and its partners, based on leaks, sheds light on how the island's economic model was allowed abuses, despite warnings from anti-fraud watchdogs.

Le Monde

The unoccupied part of Cyprus is a functional democracy. At the time of accession, it was hoped that the EU would catalyze a solution to the Cyprus problem altogether. Greek nationalists fucked that up.

UnderpantsWeevil Feb 5

The unoccupied part of Cyprus is a functional democracy.

There’s two ways to read this and one of them is very funny.

But sure, put all your chips on Kyriakos Mitsotakis and tell me about the freedoms enjoyed by Greek Cypriots in 2026.

At the time of accession, it was hoped that the EU would catalyze a solution to the Cyprus problem altogether. Greek-Cypriot nationalists fucked that up.

Inducting Cyprus while denying longtime NATO ally and European trading partner Turkiye was already guaranteed to land flat. Opening the floodgates for money and military aid into Cyprus, via the EU relaxed trade and travel rules, yielded predictable results.

Kyriakos Mitsotakis - Wikipedia

Get your Greeks straight buddy. Mitsotakis is not Cypriot. I also have no idea what you mean by “military aid flooding into Cyprus”. Cyprus has a tiny national guard.

That said, with the Helsinki agreement in 1999, Greece pinned its hopes to normalization with “longtime NATO ally” and regional bully to a europeanization of the relationship. The hope was that getting Turkey to commit to European values would “tame” its aggression towards Greece and Cyprus. Then came Erdogan.

UnderpantsWeevil Feb 5

Mitsotakis is not Cypriot.

He’s the President of the government that claims the Greek-Nationalist occupied end of the island.

Greece pinned its hopes to normalization with “longtime NATO ally” and regional bully to a europeanization of the relationship

How do you Europeanize your relationship when you refuse to see your neighbor as European?

I’ve already pointed out your mistake, not sure if it’s worth repeating myself.

The biggest problem with Turkey is not religion, it’s the stunted democracy, the abstention from various international treaties, the occupation of half of Cyprus and the active casus belli against Greece.

They aren’t comparable. One is the prospect of a forced marriage, the other is being asked to join a semi functional study group.

cecilkorik Feb 5

Forced marriage to a violent, abusive bully, vs study group with a disorganized slightly autistic nerd who’s really smart. I don’t want to spoil the endings, but I think we should all be able to figure out which one is going to have a positive impact on our lives and which one’s going to turn us into a domestic violence statistic.

Coolbeanschilly Feb 5

This is an interesting prospect. I hope that it’s explored further. Either that, or the CANZUK idea.

Middle Power Path.

Why not CANZUKEU ;-)

Boomer Humor Doomergod Feb 5

CANZUKEU

Gesundheit

CanadaPlus Feb 5

See, we’re speaking German already.

panda_abyss Feb 5

I don’t think I want to be chained up to the UK.

They’re not a good example these days.

blinfabian Feb 5

the UK is also barely european. also their politics feel very american

corsicanguppy Feb 5

You’re not trapped with the UK; they’re trapped with us.

Besides, Spain and Denmark seem kinda cool for study-buddies, and we can learn a bit about how to take care of people instead of corporations if we hang out a bit.

ILikeBoobies Feb 5

Both were being called for under Trudeau, he couldn’t make it work.

Coolbeanschilly Feb 5

Trudeau as a leader was a nothingburger in terms of effectiveness.

ILikeBoobies Feb 5

A lot of the time it felt like he would only do something if it benefited the Americans.

I was glad he stepped down, but it still illustrates that people wanted it.

Coolbeanschilly Feb 5

Hopefully the past year or so has made us wake up as a nation overall.

r8KNzcU8TzCroexsE2xbWC Feb 5

I like this idea a lot but would like to retain our currency. Otherwise I think it’s all upside.

ILikeBoobies Feb 5

Why are you attached to the currency?

As a dual Greek-Canadian citizen: fuck the Euro. It’s a straightjacket that forces everyone to follow the economic priorities of Germany.

ILikeBoobies Feb 5

While Greece does have economic problems because of Europe it’s not the Euro that’s at fault and they predate the EU.

Greece’s problems prior to the debt crisis were not the fault of the Euro.

The “solutions” that were offered to Greece during the crisis were conceived with Greece’s best interest in mind, but with preserving the Euro and placating German (and other “northern”) right wingers that saw the debt crisis as a moral crusade against “lazy Mediterraneans”. That’s what I mean by straitjacket. The Greek economy was forced into an aggressive internal devaluation with no upside. Greece is currently trailing behind post-soviet-bloc members. It’s been effectively shot for at least 10-20 years.

This is to say: a currency union only works if you have other mechanisms for deeper union in terms of fiscality, transfers etc. And in an unequal system like the European one, this doesn’t work to the advantage of everyone. Canada should not let go of the CAD.

ILikeBoobies Feb 5

It’s a good way of putting it but we’re in that situation now with our own currency.

It’s just less forward facing that something costs twice as much because of the American dollar vs the same cost but we have half as much.

Simplified but I hope you can see the parallel.

Yes but we have full control of our currency and central bank and therefore we have more policy levers to fine tune our response. “Forward facing” is aspirational, I just don’t see the benefit.

The “solutions” that were offered to Greece during the crisis were not conceived with Greece’s best interest in mind, but with preserving the Euro and placating German (and other “northern”) right wingers that saw the debt crisis as a moral crusade against “lazy Mediterraneans”.

The euro is a great advantage for all countries that take part, including Greece. It was Greece’s membership in Eurozone that made the support easier for all sides.

There have been problems back then and many of them may still persist, but they have nothing to do with the currency. Nor has it to do with the “right wingers” that saw “a moral crusade against lazy Mediterraneans” that forced Greece “into an aggressive internal devaluation.” This is meaningless propaganda rant.

In short: a country that controls its currency, faced with a situation like Greece’s in 2012 can ease the hurt by devaluing its currency. That option was not available to Greece because of the Euro. Instead the internal devaluation was forced through, to immense social cost.

That said, I take a very great deal of exception to the “propaganda” accusation. It implies I’m a bad faith actor here, which in turns means anything I say is suspect. If that’s what you think, I have no reason to continue this discussion. Clarify your position.

What should I clarify? What is it that you don’t understand?

You speak of “German and other northern right wingers” of not having “Greece’s best interest in mind” as they were on a “moral crusade” against “lazy Mediterraneans.” And these are not even all insults and accusations you made literally out of nothing. You don’'t cite a source, not a single number, or anything that would show that you even try to foster your opinion. It’s just an empty rant, and it’s not your first one if I may say so. You are engaging in nothing but insults.

I agree just in one point: There is no reason to continue this discussion.

Then accuse me of making an unsubstantiated rant like you just did. To that I can respond with “that’s what Varoufakis has been screaming off the top of his lungs for a decade now and that’s what people like economic historian Adam Tooze have basically said more politely”. When it comes to the stereotyping and moral crusade kind of attitude I can talk from my own goddam experience.

But accusing me of “propaganda” takes it a step further into saying I am a bad faith malicious actor that is trying to manipulate the space over some kind of agenda. Propaganda is not a difference of opinion or a rant, it is a deliberate sustained tactic to control the information space on behalf of someone else. Propaganda is post-truth, treating speech as ammunition in an information war.

So here is what I am asking you to clarify: are you saying I’m a post-truth actor engaging here on behalf of some other entity to perform information warfare?

corsicanguppy Feb 5

You mean like the UK did? Do you need more prior art than that?

r8KNzcU8TzCroexsE2xbWC Feb 5

I know it’s completely achievable, the Czechs, Romanians, Poles and a few others have done the same.

r8KNzcU8TzCroexsE2xbWC Feb 5

I don’t think that’s an option for new members any more. I know Denmark was given an exception, but it may be a sticking point for the EU

Take Sweden and Denmark as better examples.

We don’t need the Euro. We don’t need the European Stability and Growth Pact. Yes to closer integration, no to joining EU institutional dysfunction.

corsicanguppy Feb 5

We can keep our money

Institutional dysfunction is a weird term for global management in a format intended to be collaborative and egalitarian. It’s different from how the East India company managed their territory because it’s not autocratic, and in this it’s kinda new.

No we can’t. The 1992 Maastricht Treaty requires new entries to eventually join the Euro.

I’m talking very specifically about how the EU is politically dysfunctional.

Zedstrian Feb 5

Adopting the Euro is still de facto optional as long as a country’s government intentionally avoids compliance with the five convergence criteria.

Why not bother with full EU integration then? Let’s apply to join the EFTA and avoid the shenanigans.

WanderingThoughts Feb 5

Meanwhile USA east and west coast are looking into joining Canada (and EU?) while Trump is looking into convincing Canada’s oil producing provinces to join becoming states.

People wanted change. They’re going to get it. Not the one they voted for probably.

Any US state that wanted to join Canada would have to reckon with the “guns” thing. Even states that align with Canada in most ways still have a lot of gun nuts, even left-leaning gun nuts. Meanwhile, Canada has slowly been tightening already fairly restrictive gun laws. One glance across the border makes Canadians convinced that guns just escalate problems, they don’t solve them.