Mastodawn

Income Tax Is Theft

https://lemmy.world/post/42651010

Income Tax Is Theft - Lemmy.World

So, I work hard, my ass off, 5 days a week, 11 months a year, and I pay 1/3 or 1/4th of it so that pidophiles dont pay taxes. Income tax, VAT, property selling tax are all theft. There is no logic behind it. The taxes that should exist is: Wealth tax, nature tax for the businesses that damage nature, and that is it. And no tax should be over 5%. Wealth tax: 0%, income tax: 30% this is unacceptable. You either pay no taxes or you pay everything as tax. I actually calculated it, and yearly 2.5% of wealth tax should be enough. And also, countries have a lot of resources, that also can help their budget, like mines or rented lands that are owned by government etc. If we taxed wealth, not work, we could buy our houses way easier, we could buy land way easier, we could find a job way easier because we are not gonna pay income and vat, businesses will be able to hire people freely, and everybody can own a business easily. Nowadays, if you are poor it is so hard to create a business. You have a lot of expenses.

🇰 🌀 🇱 🇦 🇳 🇦 🇰 🇮 Feb 4

In the current system, yeah. It’s just extortion of the poor.

Inherently, though, taxes are good. They just need to actually be collected fairly and proportionally, which, again, the current system does not do because it is corrupt.

Protoknuckles Feb 4

Yeah, I hate the whole “taxation is theft” argument. Motherfucker, taxation is cooperation. I want our roads paved, our children educated, our people healthy, our science interesting and our infrastructure strong. I’m willing to chip in for that.

I do agree with OP though that the current system and government is fucked.

Taxes are good, income tax isn’t

MentalEdge Feb 4

What is the difference between income tax and your “wealth” tax?

Is it not just the exact same thing, but applied at a different point in the process?

If you’re about to answer that wealth can increase in value without income… That’s still income. Which a lot of countries do tax when someone goes to liquidate an asset that has appreciated in value.

Like, 75% of billionaires get it by inheritance. Wealth can increase without income, Elon Musk doesnt have an income, it has wealth. A person with a land that 100x’ed in 10 years doesnt have an income, but his wealth increases.
Elon buys Twitter without liqudating his wealth. Similarly, every rich does it. The taxes are mostly paid by the workers, while the rich pays near 0 tax.
You get me?
When you tax wealth, not work, a person with 30K a year income, now has 40K, while the house he wants to buy was 200K, now 150K because people dont want to pay this tax, and they sell their 100 houses.

MentalEdge Feb 4

That doesn’t answer my question.

A workers salary ≠ Income

It’s one form of it.

Stocks are income. Inheritance is income. Land appreciation is income. If you give me 50 bucks as a gift, that’s income.

How is your conceptual wealth tax, not just the same as what income tax should already be?

The problems you list are all loopholes in the applicable laws, not income tax as a concept.

You get me?

MentalEdge Feb 4

And would a “wealth” tax not have an inherent loophole in that the “rich” could avoid paying tax by simply spending faster than they earn, or even staying in debt, as many “milllionares” do?

And would it not punish poor people who try to save up, by taxing them more the more they save up?

Would it not make renting vs owning even more of a problem? Poor people would be encouraged to rent as much as possible in order to have as little “wealth” as possible? While the rich could continue to charge whatever they want to cover the costs.

They are already doing this. 'Spending faster than they earn" you are still thinking like income tax. They need to spend their wealth. Staying in debt, like they need to borrow money, what are they gonna do with the money? They still need to buy something which increases their wealth.

So, think about wealth, not income. If you think like this, we will never be able to tax the rich. If that’s what you want, Idk

MentalEdge Feb 4

They are already doing this. 'Spending faster than they earn"

Yea. I said that.

as many “milllionares” do

you are still thinking like income tax

What do you mean by income tax? Because clearly you aren’t understanding what I mean.

I mean ALL income. Of any kind. No loopholes. The problem isn’t conceptual. It’s practical. The law hasn’t kept up with the bookkeeping shenanigans the rich get up to. In fact, the rich actively influence current legislation to their benefit.

You’re arguing for a complete conceptual shift for no reason, when the actual problem is corruption.

What’s really needed, is just look at how the rich are avoiding taxation, and closing the legal loopholes they use. Which your “wealth tax” won’t do. Especially as “wealth” doesn’t actually have a value until it’s bought or sold.

Wealth has a value, land can be valued easily, we have data for years all around websites and in government about the lands everywhere. The houses are also like this. You can value a company by the factories it has people it employs etc, money it earns etc. This three is more than enough. The rest of wealth may not count, it is not important.
You cant fix loopholes without taxing all billionaires until none exists, because they will constantly bribe government. Even if you fixed loopholes, they will create intentionally.

MentalEdge Feb 4

You cant fix loopholes without taxing all billionaires until none exists, because they will constantly bribe government. Even if you fixed loopholes, they will create intentionally.

Exactly. How is your proposal a solution?

Of course assets have value. But to tax them fairly, that value needs to be defined! Impartially, too boot! And can you imagine the governmental overhead of constantly defining the values of shifting assets for tax purposes, regardless whether they are being bought or sold?

Your suggestion is as exploitable as the current system. Maybe worse!

Start by taxing everything above 10M dollars, then spread wealth control to all people, than start taxing wealth, not work because if you don’t tax wealth it will again cumulate and we will have to start over.

MentalEdge Feb 4

The fuck do you mean by “wealth control”?

Are you referring to UBI?

It sounds like what youre sctually arguing for, is an asset cap. Where any property above a certain cap goes to the government.

If the cap is 10M, how do we fund UBI, infrastructure and emergency services once everyone is below that cap?

Current economies are powered by the movement of money. So we tax the movement of money. No-one gets anything without spending their assets in some way, including the rich.

You are suggesting that taxes would somehow work better, if we taxed value that was sitting still. Which isn’t entirely false, but you are also claiming that taxation of moving money should be ended entirely. Which simply won’t work. That would eventually lead to the end of public funding.

Wealth control means giving them the wealth, and not owning by the government. Because when the government owns everything, that means the people in government become rich.
Why does, not taxing moving money end public funding? Okay, it can be 2%, and this is enough.

MentalEdge Feb 4

Why does, not taxing moving money end public funding

Because eventually everyone is below the “wealth cap”. Which means no-one pays any further tax. Why would anyone accrue more wealth at that point?

Okay, it can be 2%, and this is enough.

If we’re taxing all transactions, then yes, sounds about right.

Because when the government owns everything, that means the people in government become rich.

Are you suggesting we privatize everything?

Wealth control means giving them the wealth, and not owning by the government.

Ok, but how do decisions get made then?

Government are systems. Just because you change the structure, doesn’t make it not a government. It sounds like you want better government, not “no government”.

Which I agree with.

Thanks dude, I think we agreed in a lot of ways and some disagreements may happen, no need for further discussions.

Perspectivist Feb 4

I guess your utopia doesn’t come with stuff like free education and healthcare not to mention social safety nets.

Also, not a shower thought.

It comes with stuff like that, because since everybody will have similar wealth, what matters for the most people will be applied.

PM_ME_VINTAGE_30S [he/him]Feb 4

Broke: Taxation is theft, therefore it’s bad. Woke: Taxation is not theft, so it’s okay. Bespoke: Taxation is theft but stealing from the capitalists is good, therefore taxing the rich is good.

Yes, That’s what I am talking about. Income tax, is taxation of the poor

This is right-wing bullshit. Proper income tax is progressive and spares the proletariat.

Saledovil Feb 4

I’m in favor of a land value tax. See Georgism.

Yes, defitinitely. Land is the biggest wealth

Test_Tickles Feb 4

But most land owners already pay land taxes every year. And the amount of tax you pay depends upon the value of the land. 20 years ago I bought a little house way out in the fucking middle of nowhere, cuz that’s all I could afford. Now, the area around me has suddenly become a hotspot for development and I am paying 4x what I was originally paying.
The real problem, as others have stated, is the loopholes that give companies special rights and privileges.

MyMindIsLikeAnOcean Feb 4

I think you’re getting downvoted into oblivion because people are reading your headline and not your post?

There’s nothing to argue with in your message. I don’t know the particulars of your income/tax situation…but, yeah, if the people with all the money paid appropriate taxes…then many actual working people wouldn’t need to, and society would be more healthy. You’d still be paying a ton of excise taxes.

PierceTheBubble Feb 4

If you want citizens to keep working their ass off, you minimize worker capital through taxes, fines, profit, or any other artificial expenses; so they’re stuck in a perpetual struggle for stability. And as a byproduct, the parasitic upper class can live royally, of the working class’ hard work.

GreatWhite_Shark_EarthAndBeingsRightsPerson Feb 4

Only when what our Federal Gov. claims it will do, but never even achieved it, when you consider miss-spending of tax dollars, for Capitalist believes of moving all resources up to The Rich-Super Rich Economic Classes/Owners, while minorities in economics-resources (which includes almost all minorities of economics-races, worse in 1900-1960) decreases, especially with crises (created by The Capitalism favorite people/The Rich-Super Rich Economic Classes/Owners).

I am not telling you to stop paying taxes. Pay taxes over your wealth, not work.

GreatWhite_Shark_EarthAndBeingsRightsPerson Feb 4

Income Tax Is Theft

Realy?

GreatWhite_Shark_EarthAndBeingsRightsPerson Feb 4

Okay, let say, I believe you, then t how what you posted stop work taxing? You cannot separate what one earns, from what one works, when comes to being taxed. You cannot separate lower hrs. to a living hrs., required to get double pay/overtime or something like that to lower amount of work done or you cannot separate raise the federal minimum wage to a living wage. Or You can drastically lower taxes non-The Rich-Super Rich Economic Classes/Owners pay & nothing for those poor Economic Class & Raise
& You can drastically raise taxes The Rich-Super Rich Economic Classes/Owners to 90+%.

I agree with doing all of it & a lot more.

Income tax is work tax. You are paying 30% of your labor every month. Don’t you get it? When you tax wealth and not work, a person with a billion dollars, gets taxed 20 million dollars a year, while a person with no wealth and gets 3K dollars a month, doesn’t pay taxes, because he is poor af.
Currently, Billion dollar guy pays nearly nothing even though this won’t effect his life much, while the worker pays 1K a month even though he needs it to live.

GreatWhite_Shark_EarthAndBeingsRightsPerson Feb 4

I think my previous reply proves I understand what you were saying, if you read it.