@cstross @Green_Footballs

Bear in mind that the Nazis exterminated non-whites, but also whites who were “unfit”.

Similarly, RFK doesn’t think all white people deserve to be alive.

His belief is that vaccines are responsible for keeping “unfit” individuals alive, thus degrading the human race — including the white part of it — and that superior people will survive infection. So he has no problem with measles escaping these camps and infecting white people.

@bodhipaksa @cstross @Green_Footballs

I still find it amazing/horrifying that one crowd of idiots, who ideologically misunderstand biology and evolution, are able to cooperate with the other crowd of idiots, who deny evolution exists. Surely there is a way to drive a wedge between these two, to break up their evil alliance?

@8r3n7 You're treating the public rationalizations as motivations.

The actual motivations are to guarantee the primate band status they think they deserve. ("I can hit who I want" and "I can fuck who I want") Absolutely everything else is a post-facto rationalization to keep you from forming a group that can object effectively.

It works to think of this as a parasitic condition on the basic cognitive tools of civilization.

@bodhipaksa @cstross @Green_Footballs

@graydon

That doesn’t really jive with what I have learned about in-group vs out-group signalling, and the importance of proving one’s devotion by taking a strong stance, making sacrifices, and similar behaviours.

Unless you are distinguishing between the cynical leadership, who only “believe” things expediently and superficially, and the followers who adopt “true belief”.

It can be some hyper-zealot (possibly also cynical) who figures out that the leadership is in league with heretics, and starts a schism. I just want to consider how to speed up the schism!

@bodhipaksa @cstross @Green_Footballs

@8r3n7 Ever seen or heard tell of an ex-nazi?

The fash are a post-Reformation/Counter-Reformation movement that's more or less immune to schism. (Rather like so-called mainstream Protestantism underwent relentless schisms but evangelical mammonism doesn't.)

And while they certainly do have in-group/out-group signalling, you can't believe what they tell you about their motivations.

tl;dr they believe stuff, but they don't care what you think about them.

@bodhipaksa @cstross @Green_Footballs

@graydon

High level, what is the most likely process of dismantling fascist power? Is there a non-violent, or minimally violent, strategy?

OK, so ideological critiques by outsiders are ineffective. I was thinking that ideological fractures might work from inside. But you are saying that has a snowball’s chance in hell. Can we still hope for raw internal power struggles? Are we waiting on the King to die, amd trigger violent struggles between princes?

Their rigid hierarchy is still objectively bad for the peons, no? They might believe they can “hit” who they want. But they can only hit down. So they will need a lot of self-restraint, or external motivation, to redirect their appetites. Where? Perpetual soldiering, raping, pillaging? And the rest of us waiting for that old story to play itself out?

(BTW, yes, I have read stories of ex-nazis, but they are certainly rare, mostly because they get so little support.)

@bodhipaksa @cstross @Green_Footballs

@8r3n7 Fascists are an eliminationist philosophy; everyone who does not grant them their status is broken/defective and should die.

Non-violent resistance to eliminationist movements is not plausibly effective. About the best you can do is to apply the civil power's construction of force.

(Also; resistance is what you do when you've already lost. Don't romanticize resistance. It's a failure condition from which one strives to recover.)

@bodhipaksa @cstross @Green_Footballs

@graydon

When I said “non-violent” I meant “avoiding open warfare”. I am fine with rounding them all up and putting them in prison, using whatever force is necessary. given a clear definition of the laws that they have broken.

Although, as hinted, I think that the ranks of fascists are swollen by soft, even doubtful members, seeking camaraderie; they are not true believers. I don’t have empirical evidence, only anecdotes. Would like to see evidence, either way.

The structure is not as strong as it appears. It is built on lies and nonsense. There are fractures, and weak points. Destroying a (seeming) monolithic structure means applying stress to the fractures, not wasting energy on brute force attacks across the entire edifice.

@bodhipaksa @cstross @Green_Footballs

@8r3n7 There's a military parable about that, generally told about a famous general demonstrating that sometimes you can squeeze a walnut open and neatly extract the edible contents; the next demonstration is that you can smash the walnut into fragments. The distinction made is that the first approach works sometimes; the second approach always works.

Ending cultural continuity of fascists is more important than doing it artistically.

@bodhipaksa @cstross @Green_Footballs