reddit_suxPeople espousing that unions don't work should have a look at police unions.
The countries I know of where employers have decent vacation etc and don’t hate the employers, all have strong unions.
If unions doesn’t work, then maybe you are doing it wrong.
schnurritoAFAICT not really true for Austria (where I live), we get 5 weeks of vacation, yet I don’t hear very much about unions and am not myself a member of one
These things are subject to cycles. Things are shit, people unionize, things become a bit less shitty, people stop unionizing, things start getting shitty again, rinse and repeat. Most of Europe is ending the part of the cycle where people thought they didn’t a union anymore.
Unions are for states which are run for pure profit growth governments that focus on corporate health over humans.
Countries which have this baked in at the Government level typically don’t need them because the government is the union.
That is not, and never has been the case in the US.
vaultdweller013Honestly Austria is probably one of the exceptions to the rule. You’ve got a weird history with labor and economic systems post WW2 and even before that causes you guys to just kinda be doing your own thing. Hell I’m pretty sure Austria is the only occupied territories the Soviets just kinda allowed to leave their bloc.
Company unions don’t work.
And if union busting is encouraged by the government, being part of a regular union might not be worth the sacrifice.
Union busting government deserves to fall.
And company unions do as well.
I’ll have the feeling the voters in this tread have no idea what a company union is. There’s a reason they are banned by international labor law!
I agree with you
Most people won’t understand the difference or read your link
Especially because “company” unions aren’t a thing in the civilised world
I just added the link just seconds ago. Apparently looking up terms people don’t know is too difficult.
It’s more that context is important. The thread is about “Police Unions”, so it’s not surprising that people would read “Company Union” as meaning a union at a commercial enterprise by contrast, rather than the highly specific definition that you’ve used that distinguishes a company union from a trade union.
You can either prance about in the thread about how dumb everyone else is, or you could edit your original statement to clarify what you meant.
OtterFor those that haven’t read the link
A company or “yellow” union is a worker organization which is dominated or unduly influenced by an employer and is therefore not an independent trade union. Company unions are contrary to international labour law (see ILO Convention 98, Article 2).1 They were outlawed in the United States by the 1935 National Labor Relations Act §8(a)(2),2 due to their use as agents for interference with independent unions. However, company unions persist in many countries.
A company or “yellow” union is a worker organization which is dominated or unduly influenced by an employer and is therefore not an independent trade union. Company unions are contrary to international labour law (see ILO Convention 98, Article 2).1 They were outlawed in the United States by the 1935 National Labor Relations Act §8(a)(2),2 due to their use as agents for interference with independent unions. However, company unions persist in many countries.
I also didn’t know this:
Japan
Main article: Labor unions in Japan
Company unions are a mainstay of labor organization in Japan, viewed with much less animosity than in Europe or the United States. Unaffiliated with RENGO (the largest Japanese trade union federation), company unions appeal to both the lack of class consciousness in Japanese society and the drive for social status, which is often characterized by loyalty to one’s employer.25
Unions work depending on how 'in it together' you feel.
If you resent the people standing around doing nothing they start to fail. If you resent the people who do worse work than you for the same pay they start to fail. note that on an assembly line the above isn't possible in the first place - which is why they work great there. (Bus drivers and police are also not really measureable like that)
To me, this is an area where some unions could really make up some ground with conservatives and liberals. The instinct to rally around members can be detrimental to the overall goal of the union when that member has been proven to be a bad employee. I’ve never been in a union, so I’m guessing the stereotype of lazy union workers is probably overblown; but I’m sure there are examples that reinforce it.
I suspect that some of the ‘lazy union worker’ stereotype is workers following their contract and refusing to do non-contracted work, which is, of course, essential to maintaining the value of that contract. Pride in your own work/trade doesn’t mean cleaning up after the other trades; professionalism in your own work doesn’t mean unpaid overtime to fix someone else’s fuckup.
one of the biggest tools used in america to break unions is creating a 2-tier workforce (incentivizes one group deciding to work less-hard, which builds resentment) and by purposefully lowering hiring standards. lotta unions in the US really are complacent, seemingly having forgotten that these same capitalists they regularly fail to bargain with have literally attempted to murder them multiple times within living memory.
when all you know is the farm…you don’t realize just how much better it could be, i guess.
This is true, though police unions typically leverage the “fuck you all” nature of being a union, that Dems won’t touch, and being police, that the GOP won’t touch. So no one stops policies that give wacky amounts of leave.
That should be the attitude of all unions
Honestly, not really. Someone that worked with Chicago PD was telling me that a lot of the more senior officers (this was also 10 years ago) leverage accruing enough leave to cover half the year. So they collect a salary 6 months of the year, and a lot end up getting second jobs because they want more money. These are taxpayer-funded services, so I’d rather not give ample avenues to abuse the system because politicians have no spine.
This breaks the morale but why to sacrifice collective good because a few game the good to get better.
Contracts can be drawn to have consequences for gaming the system.
What commander wants to go against senior guys? What Union wants to throw members under the bus?
And now it means it’s time to hire more officers! /s
That’s the problem with making anyone or any group untouchable, is that you lose the ability to weed out corruption, or even make small changes that affect a few bad actors because the group sees any action against one as an action against all. Which is the point of unions in the first place.
Unions are double-edged swords, and when set in a monopolistic situation like this, you can’t just close the Police Department like you can a coal mine in WV if costs get too high. In Chicago the Police Union IS the monopoly holder - and the same happens in many other cities, like LA. Police reforms become a suicide pact. It’s one of a few situations where everything is flipped from the usual company owner vs. union scenario, and then instantly becomes a national-level “Ah, but we’re a UNION!” when bothered in the slightest.
police unions arent organized against an abusive management though they’re organized against the public they supposedly serve and protect, which they also have the monopoly of violence over.
if you really wanted to reign in police unions…just make em pay all their abuse of force lawsuits out of their pensions. they’d create a national database tracking/banning cereal shitbags real quick
My argument is unions are not the monster they are made out to be. They can be good.
police
they are used to enforce the status quo of both parties.
In some cities, typically heavily Democrat ones like Chicago and LA, they’re the monopoly holders, and push their own politics up and force the City Council to take it or accept the political costs of fucking with a union or of fucking with the perception of security and crime. Police unions flip everything you think you know about unions on its head. Unlike normal worker unions, the city can’t close up shop and move if the labor costs get too high. And yet in many large cities police are incredibly ineffectual at everything short of harassing the general public over smalltime BS because it’s easy for them.
Ironically, another Chicago union, the Teacher’s Union, treats themselves with the same level of monopolistic power occasionally, and then asks for a raise and gets smacked down quickly because no one actually cares about schools or learning. Even though most residents support the Teacher’s Union, they are nothing close to holding the same power as the Police Union.
In a capitalist world unions will always exist because there will never be any laws to protect the producer of capital (the worker). Imagine how much union dues could go back into the worker’s pocket if they were protected by their government?
MinnesotaGoddamIn a capitalist world unions will always exist because there will never be any laws to protect the producer of capital
so we’re living in the real world here
GreatWhite_Shark_EarthAndBeingsRightsPersonThere is no need for violence, government fears organized populace. That is enough.
Unions aren’t possible at my company.
1/3 speaks Spanish, 1/3 speaks some African dialect only they understand, and the other 1/3 speak english, and the entire culture aims eachother’s hate at eachother.
This is America.
Ashley Furniture btw. Full on bodyslam under the bus.
Aren’t they the new wayfair?
Wish you the best.
As for Ashley furniture… garbage and overpriced furniture. Never again.
SamskaraAre you going to argue that police unions are a net good? They are the reason we have impenetrable qualifed immunity for even ridiculously egregious misconduct and any time a cop is shown to actually go over the absurdly strict line of what they can be held legally accountable for, the unions protect them at all costs. The reason criminal cops can just get hired at any other PD and their past is covered up/ignored is the police unions. I’m not saying they don’t do good things, but the bad they do is way too much to overlook.
There’s very clearly no indication that they are implying police unions are good, they’re implying they are effective. Which is inarguable.
they have cities by the stranglehold, got crime, cant have that and need to pay police, got Rich persons property, IP under threat they need them too.
Union doesn’t work because there is so much competition in my country that anybody going out of line will be replaced
That’s exactly why a union will work.
I guess if you work at a company where they could replace 100% of the staff without losing money, then yeah, a union wouldn’t work.
This is exactly what unions are meant to prevent, hire and fire.
The only issue with Unions is a corporate system that has spent decades on a campaign of misinformation and vilification.
Never forget that its unions that gave you a five day work week, 8 hour days, and child labour laws.
Nothing is given by a corporation out of the kindness of their heart. And nothing makes them more gleeful than listening to people repeat their anti-union screed.
And they only got there by striking and work actions because the nature of their positions gave them the leverage needed to be effective. The NYPD can’t ship the factory to another country or bring in immigrant labour to do policing. If they aren’t policing, property rights won’t be enforced for businesses. Leverage. The police are the mechanism that break labour strikes and protests on behalf of capital. There is no such mechanism to break a police strike or protest, except the feds or the military which won’t be used.
Most labour jobs do not have this kind of leverage because technology shrank the world and business has negotiated trade deal that give them the freedom to undermine worker leverage. Workers have no leverage to force capitulation. Labour has long lost any control they had to influence business practices and fight for themselves. Labour actions would have to be across the entire company to effectively force capitulation and that is next to impossible because labour ain’t a community anymore thanks to anti-commie fear mongering. Every union is isolated, every location is separated, every company the corporate owns is independent from each other. Labour is too divided to stand united and united is the only way it effectively works. A group can’t fight individual power with individual power, it must fight with collective power and for that, it needs to be united first.
Comrade_SquidPeople parroting this are falling for the capitalist propaganda. Unions work so well that the ruling class has employed a mass campaign against unions. That isn’t weakness.
We the working class keep our society running, we can shut our society down, and this scares the shit out of the ruling classes who while wealthy in assets, are weak in number.
Especially the police unions in Massachusetts, where they have a stranglehold on public works. Need to dig up a sidewalk to repair a water main? That’ll require a 2 person police detail for a minimum of 6 hours, and it’s all overtime pay.
Bet you can’t find civilian flagged anywhere in the state.
Wow. That’s insane.
HMMMM, I wonder why police unions were allowed to exist, but all the others were decimated and neutered?
UltraGiGaGiganticWhat other unions protect their members from murder charges?
People aren’t opposed to unions because they think unions aren’t powerful, they’re opposed to unions because they’re powerful.
It is the rich and powerful who are opposed, the public is just afraid and brainwashed out of their own power.
That’s not true though. I’ve talked to plenty of working class people who hate unions and hate dealing with union workers due to perceived laziness, bad work ethic, and the inability to fire bad workers.
Also plenty of unions are full of rich and powerful people: pilots unions, doctors unions, actors unions, sports athletes unions.
i dont think police unions count, they are gang/mafia that can browbeat a city to giving what it wants, its fully supported by the gop and dnc, because they can use to keep the general population at arms length.
This can be countered by having non local cops in the mix, having frequent transfers of cops.
Yes these can be seen as union busting.
Unions are good and they work. But just as any good things in excess it becomes poison.
When I talk to people they seem most upset that unions don’t work for them. They feel a part of something so large that it doesn’t care about them.
They call them self a union but it’s more of a guild.