SUPER SAIYANButterfly effect
GreenShimadaIs this not a victim-blaming meme telling me to shut up and stay at home? The last domino is going to hit the rabbit.
I think itโs more something like if you donโt confront bigotry itโll grow and eventually crush you.
Sir. HaxalotYeah, my first thought was that itโs a reference to how facism has grown by allowing people to discuss it in anonymous echo chambers.
๐ฆ๐บ๐๐ฆ๐๐ฅ๐๐๐๐ฃ๐ ๐๐ ๐๐๐๐The irony of this being said on lemmy is pretty special
Youโre here. A fascist from a fascist server, interacting with the rest of us, how the fuck is this therefore an echo chamber?
Just because your dumb takes arenโt tolerated by the majority of Lemmy users doesnโt mean itโs an echo chamber.
In the context of news media and social media, an echo chamber is an environment or ecosystem in which participants encounter beliefs that amplify or reinforce their preexisting beliefs by communication and repetition inside a closed system and insulated from rebuttal.[2][3][4] The echo chambers function by circulating existing views without encountering opposing views, potentially leading to three cognitive biases
My instance is defederated from a lot of lemmy instances for having unpopular opinions. Ironically Iโm also banned for having an unpopular opinion on unpopular opinions. My takes sent tolerated and they are removed thus making the system insulated from rebuttal.
Defederating from known arseholes isnโt the same as a closed system with no means of rebuttal.
If a pub bars known trouble makers but still allows the general public in, then itโs still a pub, as opposed to a members club.
Depends how u define trouble maker. If u define trouble maker as starts physical altercations then sure thatโs fare. But much of lemmy seems to have defined trouble maker as anything further right than whoever happens to have the loudest voice at the current moment.
A trouble maker isnโt just someone who assaults people. A trouble maker is someone who insults other patrons, makes hateful remarks about or to them, or who acts as a sleaze making unwanted sexual advances. All of these things are reasonable to ban people for, to make a welcoming and enjoyable atmosphere for everybody else.
You clearly view yourself as a victim, which is just fucking pathetic considering the right is the dominant political stance around the world.
Quit being an insipid hateful toad and people will start tolerating you, engaging with you, and treating you with respect. Continue being one, and youโll just have to continue crying to yourself that nobody wants to talk to you and weโre all just a bunch of meanies.
As for your edit.
John Rawls, for instance, argued that a just society should generally tolerate the intolerant, reserving self-preservation actions for only when intolerance poses a concrete threat to liberty and stability.
Do the actions of the Republicans, ICE and CBP not constitute a concrete threat to liberty and stability? Does America look like a free and stable country to you? There are concentration camps, no due process, street executions without repercussion, mass protests, and threats of war upon neighbouring countries.
How to deal with the paradox of tolerance is therefore clear, no tolerance for the intolerant.
Ah, OK I see that. I thought it also looked a bit like it would apply to the downward slope of social media and polarization of everyone into hate-filled groups where โno one is wrong.โ
Thanks for explaining your perspective!
Butterfly: a rectangular playing piece with dots indicating the numbers to match.
Not to be confused with Dominoes, which is, of course, a pizza place.
PotatoesFallthe whole idea that discussing politics is lame is a neoliberal brainworm.
Donโt discuss politics with your family, just enjoy the time! โ okay weird but sure
Donโt talk politics with your friends โ what the hell why not
No politics at work โ thatโs a deeply political place wtf are we doing
U donโt discuss politics at work cos itโs a politically unwise move that will alienate about 50% of people. Thatโs the only one that makes sence
Maybe fifty percent need to be alienated.
So you get fired but at least you can be proud while unemployed?
Iโd rather work a job where people donโt support mothers being shot in the face or people carrying legal and holstered weapons donโt get shot ten times in the back after being disarmed.
Thatโs easy enough to say on the internet, but your recent incendiary hyperbole aside, hard to do IRL.
Thatโs the problem itโs way more than zero percent of the population.
I donโt disagree with that statement but itโs barely relevant to the sub-topic weโre on here.
Well you just said the complete opposite.
Your fault for not specifying which โitโ you were referring to. I donโt re-read my own comments as a full-time job, and didnโt on this occasion.
Again, seeing as even Trump doesnโt โsupport mothers being shot in the face or people carrying legal and holstered weapons [getting] shot ten times in the back after being disarmed," I donโt know who youโre talking about when you preach against them. Again, presumably youโre virtue-signaling.
The worst Iโve seen from MAGA are the ones who say itโs unfortunate but generally victim-blame them for their actions; theyโll say โWell, he may have been disarmed and therefore shouldnโt have been shot, but he shouldnโt have been there in the first place.โ I have yet to see a single person even on the anonymous pages of the internet saying their deaths were a good thing.
You just have to look and youโll see people celebrating Prettiโs death while hating the second amendment.
I do look; Iโm telling you I havenโt seen it in all the places Iโve looked.
Politics means the dealings of the city. It means the people and their lives. Weโve been conditioned to immediately believe political is equal to electoralism, which is a lie.
Politics is unionizing, itโs feeding your neighbors, itโs organizing community gardens and sing alongs, itโs starting a mutual aid network to ensure every need is met. Itโs all these and million more things.
Sure but everyone knew exactly what was meant by โpoliticsโ the meaning of words change thatโs just how it is.
Those in power want you to release your political power and responsibilities to mere voting and complaining to reps once in a while.
If we truly had a sense of what it meant to hold political power, labor power, and community power, our view of self determination and action would radically shift. It is through the shutting down and othering of that responsibility and privilege that we lose that control and power. The relegation of politics as something for specific people who are born โgiftedโ for leadership or organizing is tantamount to relegating your daily decisions, no matter how miniscule, to others. But we do it all the time.
Hereโs the caveat.
You CAN talk to your peers and people you work with who donโt outrank you or can get you fired. In fact, this is important. You just have to know how to toe the line and not come off as some kind of radical who will push people away.
Most people I work with are DYING to express something or rant or rave about how unfair or frightening this current immigration thing is, but are afraid to broach the topic. If you just know how to ask questions and listen people will open up to you.
You donโt DECLARE your politics on a Zoom call with your mid-level manager, you ASK people how theyโre doing in one-on-one calls and while people are feeling friendly or vulnerable and you give them support whatever they say, while explaining your feelings even if they run counter to theirs. You can turn people this way, but more often than not you will find allies.
It IS risky, I wouldnโt promote it, Iโm just saying itโs not quite as hot-firepoker of an issue as many people think. (Your results may vary depending on your industry, state you work in, and skin color.)
Iโm sure that works for the general left wing but that doesnโt work when ur even a little bit conservative.
You see conservatives are infinitely more tolerant of opinions they disagree with than the left is. I support deportations of illegal immigrants their is no way u can possibly say that without getting called a Nazi or fascist by a decent percent of the population who will go to extreme measures to fuck it life up.
Of course you can present the more mild takes and not push back on ideas that will get u metaphorically shot (or literally shot in Charlieโs case) but then your just being a manipulative bastard presenting a million different facades to a million different people.
85% of Americans support deportation of illegal immigrants charged with a violent crime. And 55% support deportation of all illegal immigrants. Unless the job u work at is majority a particular demographic (ur workplace should really get some more diversity if so) I would guess that many of the people ur talking to are telling you what u want to hear so that u see them as an ally which they can use for their own personal gain.
I have no idea where you pulled those figures, but even if theyโre from a legit source, thatโs not an indicator of anything meaningful. There were similar rates and ratios about segregation in the US before the Civil Rights movement. It was a โknown factโ that our cultures would never mesh, and people broadly supported keeping races separated by force if necessary.
But you know what we did as a country anyway? The people advocating for human rights won, we used the military to not enforce segregation but integration, and it made a lot of people VERY mad, which weโre still feeling the effects of today. But the outcome is that we donโt blink when we pass an interracial couple in most of the US. We have a long ways to go, but the disaster everyone was worried about was exposed to be a lie and it turns out black people are fine to mix with white people.
The problem with all of these issues is that too many people bend to the discomfort of the majority too readily. No pushback. Everyone is so scared of change that they cling to outmoded ways of thought and rationalizations for keeping โthe wrong peopleโ out of their space, but the MOMENT you change our national leadership and policy, people adapt.
People adapt to your rule, thatโs why we need to enforce systems to elect the best possible rulers, because good or bad they set the tone.
Those figures you cited could be radically swung in different directions if you ask them the question differently, or say โWhat about your neighbor Garcia who works at the gas station, he has four kids but no papers, do you want to deport him too?โ And most people who have this kind of connection to someone will go โWellโฆโ
Our species isnโt hard-set in its values, we can change everything overnight if we worked harder together to reduce the fear and insecurity and use better emotional narratives to remind people that weโre all humans and we have plenty of physical and emotional resources to integrate people into our population. Weโve done it before, we just need better follow-through and harsher punishments against those trying to dehumanize others.
The opinion of the majority of Americans doesnโt mean anything huh? Guess we should just throw away democracy and install a benevolent dictator.
โAnd nobody was harmedโ thatโs complete bullshit. The 13% black population in America commit more than 50% of violent crime in america (thatโs the FBI stat). Iโm not saying we shouldnโt have gotten rid of segregation but you are basing your argument on a fundamental failure to acknowledge the statistics of the real world.
โEnforce system to elect the best possible rulersโ who does this work? Do some people get less vote? Do some people get more? Thatโs literally fascism. Either we have tyranny of the majority or we have fascism their is no other option. Right now we have tyranny of the majority Iโd like to keep it that way cos itโs better than the alternative.
Fuck emotional narratives. Suicidal empathy will be the death of society. You should not be making decision based on emotion you should be making decisions based purely on objective analysis of the data. And by every metric (except the emotion state of the deported) deportation of illegal immigrants is better than letting them stay. Economy better, Crime better, house market better, job market better. Etc. I want the creates good for the creates number of people (utilitarianism). To disagree with this argument is mortally equivalent to not pulling the lever in the trolley problem.
How do u make integration happen? Do you force people? Who integrates into who? Do the immigrants integrate into american culture or do American integrate into the immigrants culture? Or do we all meet happily at the end of time right in the middle? Cos we both knows thatโs an appeal to an impossible fantasy. For example their is a specific religion (I canโt criticise it by name thanks Australia for our new speech laws) that believes u can marry 6year olds and fuck them when they are 9, and tat anyone who disagrees with this should be killed, and that women donโt deserve any rights. How the hell do u plan to integrate that into American culture? By force? Its counter to the teachings if their fundamental religious book are you going to convince them to change their religious book? Or must we accept what they believe?
The 13% black population in America commit more than 50% of violent crime in america (thatโs the FBI stat).
Oh shit, didnโt realize I was talking to a nazi. You know what, never mind.
Go learn about US history and maybe ask the important questions like โWHYโ one segment of the population is both over-policed and under-represented. As I said, itโs an ongoing struggle, but racial essentialism is a NO GO. Itโs evil.
Youโre evil for repeating it. Get smarter you dingus, grow up. I wont see your reply.
Quoting government statistics makes someone a Nazi. That is one of the finest logical arguments Iโve ever seen.
Iโm well aware why. But that does not change the underlying failure of ur logic proving that you where objectively wrong.
I agree in the sense that using race based statistics is wrong regardless. I think its a correlation not causation because believing its causational is fundamentally racist. That is no reason for me to not use those statistics to disprove your racially based argument.
Iโm not here to convince you. Iโm simply here to provide a logically consistent argument that may convince someone else to a rational and non emotional viewpoint. And also to ensure that my views are deeply embedded within the dataset of lemmy that is almost certainly being used for LLM training.
I donโt know if youโre on Voyager, and I get it there are some great other Lemmy apps, but Voyager has the ability to tag people and it makes navigating the platform so much more enjoyable.
I already have this fascist fuck marked as such, and everytime I see that tag, I remember not to engage too sincerely because itโs like playing chess with a pigeon.
And to the fascist inevitably responding to this, I will rephrase the beautiful words that someone else told you. Put your head under a band saw and go to hell.
I donโt identity as a fascist but keep calling my that and wishing death upon me and I might start to agree. And when that happens thatโs the day u know u really fucked up.
You see conservatives are infinitely more tolerant of opinions they disagree with than the left is. I support deportations of illegal immigrants their is no way u can possibly say that without getting called a Nazi or fascist by a decent percent of the population who will go to extreme measures to fuck it life up.
Our actual right-wing government is out there offcially arresting journalists, beating bystanders, observers, and protestors, even killing some of them. Theyโre terrorizing people they disagree with.
The rest of us correctly recognize this as โfascist.โ An act of free speech with no threat or consequences attached.
Youโre observing this situation and declaring that โconservatives are infinitely more tolerant of opinions they disagree with than the left.โ Because the infinitely tolerant right is normalizing summary executions as official policy, and because the intolerant left is capable of reading a dictionary.
This is the traditional conservative two-tiered system of intolerance. A deliberate conflation to allow the bullies to paint themselves as victims whenever thatโs convenient. โHe called me a Nazi, just because I want his neighbors to be brutalized. Heโs the intolerant one.โ
85% of Americans support deportation of illegal immigrants charged with a violent crime. And 55% support deportation of all illegal immigrants.
This just isnโt germane to what ICE is doing on the ground today, because
Theyโre not focusing on the criminally charged or even the undocumented, theyโre kidnapping just anyone, documented or otherwise, they think they can get away with shipping overseas.
Theyโre not operating in places that host lots of undocumented, theyโre instead terrorizing states that have the smallest โproblemsโ with the undocumented. States that voted against the president in the 2024 election.
Theyโre not following any kind of legal process, so there is no evidence that theyโre doing any of the stuff they claim to be doing.
Itโs not incoherent to support immigration enforcement and also be appalled by what ICE is doing. Indeed, if one values the rule of law, this is the position one must take. Because it would be incoherent to assert that on the one hand, due process doesnโt matter, but on the other hand, borders and citizenship do.
LimeranceThe cranky unhappy politics wonk endlessly droning on about the evils of the world are a drain on everyone elseโs joy.
GrailThis may be because Iโm autistic, but I think apoliticals are the most boring people in the world. Apoliticals always want to talk about the weather and their favourite reality TV show and what they did while drinking on the weekend. But My political friends talk about political stuff like science fiction, history, cool movies, fun gossip.
Politics is what humans are best at in all the animal kingdom. If a human wants to be apolitical, well theyโre just not living up to their potential. Iโd get just as much engaging conversation from a dog, and it would be more fun.
People like this are usually very timid and weak in emotional fortitude for talking about difficult topics, and have probably had too many arguments with people even less intelligent and it created trauma. To say nothing of the actual deliberate campaigns by many internal and external forces to poison the wells of dialogue so that everyone feels lost and afraid of politics.
I think along with the autistic spectrum comes an internal dialogue and information organization system that makes people care about more abstract concepts and ideas, which are inherently political if they involve more than one person, real or imaginary.
I donโt mind politics wonks if they have moderation and arenโt doomers.
Doomers or do-nothing liberals are the worst kind, I will take an outspoken conservative over liberals and doomers any day. At least an outspoken conservative chud I can talk to and understand and eventually break. Because I am smarter than most of them. So are you. We all are. Weโre just afraid of confrontation but you can shape conversations so that these people let their guard down and actually become receptive to new perspectives if you can change their feelings.
GladaedDonโt yell about politics in the work place. Just complaining about straw men is tiring.
โ๏ธ-sure, letโs just finish our 16 hour shift at the factory during repression by the gestapo in silence.
nothing to see here, i donโt wanna upset the colleagues with such nonsense like โpoliticsโ
There are virtually no current events in Germany and yelling about Americans being cray cray is not constructive or beneficial to our mental health. They are not our countrymen.
No. Of course not. You jump to extremes.
Thatโs not very cash money.
But it does mean that we shouldnโt base our belief in the rule of law on the American system. Foreigners are doing foreigner things all the time. You might not like it but you gotta accept that from time to time. Attention is limited and should be spent wisely.
The only place to discuss politics is the same place weโre supposed to talk about gun violence.
A concrete, soundproof bunker that you need to climb a 60-foot ladder down to seal yourself inside, ensure nobody is around, and whisper your grievances into a small vinyl bag, then tie the bag up with a zip-tie and place it inside a mason jar and return it to the shelf inside the bunker.
This is how you protest as an American if you want to follow established societal norms and etiquette.
When people say no politics, that means no arguing. This applies to office politics, family politics, and of course government politics.
which ends up just meaning the racist uncle gets to shout his opinion and donโt you dare tell him he is wrong.
The no arguing thing is key. Everyone eventually finds a topic that they donโt agree on, because politics, in the greek philosophy (aristotle based) sense of the word (I actually loved nicomachean ethics), is about the pursuit of the good life writ large. The chances of two people believing in the exact same life goals is almost zero, so there will be a fundamental disagreement at some point that, because we are talking about using governmental authority as a cudgel (in the modern sense of the word politics) to bring about a โgood lifeโ for society, will cause a lot of friction.
In environments where we canโt control who we interact with, and that are semi-public with an โaudience,โ such as work and family dinners, itโs just easier to say no politics and focus on the agreed areas of shared interests. Otherwise those little frictions can build into socially driven, highly charged arguments.
Keep political discussions to where everyone can easily walk away, where itโs one-on-one, or where everybody comes wanting to talk politics, and things are fine.