Mastodawn

Braille is literacy.

Many people think it can be substituted by speech synthesis, by audiobooks, by other things. It can't.

Voice is serial, it unfolds in time. It requires working memory. Braille is static. It unfolds in space, remains stable in time. It backs working memory, does not consume it. For things that require pinning down relationships (mathematics, music, programming) braile has clear advantages.

This is not to say people can't manage without it. I don't always use a braille display. But it makes things better: learning, accuracy, performance, speed.

Witholding braille from blind people is withholding literacy, it's denying capacity.

Don't fucking do that.

James Scholes Jan 4

@modulux Any research material you'd recommend on this subject? I'd like to learn more and optimise my braille usage.

@jscholes I don't have a lot on that line, but this is what made me toot this: https://nfb.org/images/nfb/publications/fr/fr33/2/fr330203.htm

Why Do You Want to Make That Child Blind?

Verbal Kint Jan 4

@modulux @jscholes
Thank you so much for your toots and the sharing of that article, that was so interesting !!
I knew about the decrease in litteracy among blind and low vision people, mainly due to the digitalization of medias and the development of text to speech, but I did not know (even if I could have guessed) about all the barriers in learning and teaching Braille.

Verbal Kint Jan 4

@modulux @jscholes
In the article you shared, I was surprised (though I should not have been, in retrospect) that the arguments "you would not make him blind" to not teach someone mobility skills, are precisely the same used for mobility impaired people, and all the "arguments" against using canes or wheelchairs. As if those tools were "giving up on disability", when they actually allow you to not give up on your participation in society.
Not using them, is giving up !

@cripamphibie @jscholes Wow, I should have guessed that wasn't a unique blind thing; but of course it makes sense that to able society, an accommodation, especially if it's visible, if it sets you apart, is an unbearable reminder; when for us, it's how we get things done.

Verbal Kint Jan 4

@modulux @jscholes
I LOVE how your toot made us both realize how similar it was for other parts of the disability community ☺️.
The case of "wheelchairs (and other mobility devices) will make you lazy or is bad for your walking capacity" is sadly very strong among medical professionals and general public.

Whereas, as you word it very accurately, it should not be "one or the other" but "one and the other" and give the place for everyone to chose the most effective tools in any situation.

Hugs4friends ♾🇺🇦 🇵🇸😷Jan 5

@cripamphibie The Deaf community relies on signage, or Sign Language. The Blind community relies on Braille, or clear communication, and courtesy. Those who have invisible disability, rely on whatever aids them to be independent. The medical profession should be in our corner, not fighting us.
Now, we also have their denial that Covid is still skittling people, and causing 'more' disability. We're back to fghting for every concession and accommodation. @modulux @jscholes

Verbal Kint Jan 4

@modulux @jscholes
I was specially appealed with the "but it is extremely long and requires efforts to learn Braille !".
Yes ? I know ? So should not we start now ? As the kid is young, and their brain is in full development ? Instead of waiting that they fail in school and/or get old, and struggle even more ?

Anyways, thanks again for this precious reading.

disorderlyf Jan 4

@cripamphibie @modulux @jscholes So does learning any language tho? As hesitant as I am to use the word, their argument is, by definition, lazy.

Brodeuse LucileDT Jan 5

@disorderlyf @cripamphibie @modulux @jscholes @dwillanski it's hard to learn to speak, and to read, and to write! But we teach that to our children anyway! It's only an excuse to use it for things like sign language or braille.

disorderlyf Jan 5

@luciledt @cripamphibie @modulux @jscholes @dwillanski Frankly, I think learning your local sign language or braille should be mandatory. Being deaf or blind is something that can happen to someone as well as be something someone is born with. Why not prepare your child for that possibility, let alone the whole entire community for them to communicate with?

Brodeuse LucileDT Jan 5

@disorderlyf @cripamphibie @modulux @jscholes @dwillanski everyone will get old, and then have less accurate hearing and sighting. Every valid people who intend to live old needs to understand they'll be disabled at some point, thus learning and using accessibility tools as early as possible will empower them and benefits them.

Verbal Kint Jan 5

@luciledt @disorderlyf @modulux @jscholes @dwillanski
Preach ! 🙏

David Willanski Jan 5

@cripamphibie @modulux @jscholes the same "argument" is made for not teaching sign language

Jennifer Moore 😷Jan 5

@cripamphibie @modulux @jscholes

Funnily enough, I was just thinking that the arguments in the article reminded me of historical arguments against not-entirely-deaf kids learning to sign. I hope it's different now (I don't know for sure how much it is) but I read a book about this ages ago when it was still a big fight. And there was a narrative like: don't _let_ them sign, force them to rely on their little bits of hearing so they can fit in with the normal world. If I recall correctly, the book was written by the parent of a deaf child, who had started off believing what the so-called experts said. And the book was partly to explain what had changed his mind, including meeting a family where the whole family had learnt sign and the communication flowed effortlessly.

Helenisenough Jan 4

@modulux @jscholes thanks for sharing this

@modulux This was a really good read! I'm fully sighted besides some bad astigmatism, but I can relate. I wanted to learn sign language in high school and college, it's always intrigued me. But sadly, those classes were always gate kept to people with diagnosed disabilities. It's stupid that these skills are kept under such tight lock when so much good could come from it! Printed words can wear off, braille can't. It has uses for the sighted too

@modulux Fully agreed. I hardly ever use braille now that I'm done with public school, the efficiency gap is real. My top braille reading speed was 180 WPM, my screen reader reads at 910 WPM. That said, when I code, I see the code in my head in braille. It helps so much.

Timothy Wynn Jan 4

@TheQuinbox @modulux Heh. Your top speed in both braille and speech surpass mine. I think I'm at maybe max of 120 WPM in braille and 800 in speech.

mirabilos Jan 4

@twynn @TheQuinbox @modulux I’m amazed at that speed, though (and I generally read rather fast).

Brodeuse LucileDT Jan 5

@twynn @TheQuinbox @modulux I'm curious, do you have a braille display to read?

Timothy Wynn Jan 5

@luciledt I do, yes. Purchased a used one for far cheaper than original price. It's one of the older ones that run Windows CE and starts up and shuts down within a couple seconds, far faster than modern displays today. @TheQuinbox @modulux

@TheQuinbox @modulux i don't use brail as mutch as when i was in school but i do still use it, my work has stuff in braille for me so i know what it is

Shannon Clark Jan 4

@modulux over 35 years ago I helped run one of the larger online MuCKs (kinda like Minecraft in that people made the content for others except it was all text this was before web browsers) Anyway there were a handful of folks who helped run the game and write the code for the game both to run it and for the content people could encounter and interact with.

One of those folks who helped run it - who I knew mostly virtually was blind and used a braille computer. He was an incredible coder

@modulux tbh I always hated reading in Braille, because I am so slow with it, but I can't do without it while programming.

Brodeuse LucileDT Jan 5

@svenja @modulux is it easier to write than to read it?

Estarriol, Terrorist Dragon Jan 4

fookin gatekeepers

Ray McCarthy Jan 4

@modulux
I read books, but can't stand audio books.

A radio/audio play is a different thing.

I set up several hundred public domain books with TTS on an android tablet for my friend that's going blind. He appreciated it, but it doesn't replace reading.

Also even Google and Amazon's best AI TTS isn't even close to a human narrator for fiction. Non mainstream names and places fail. SF&F etc is even worse.

I don't know if he's going to learn braille.

We have thousands of touch sensors.

@raymaccarthy It's not usually easy to learn braille for an adult, and getting braille printed books is complicated (they take up considerably more space). Braille displays are devices which plug into computers and can produce a line or two of braille on demand, dynamically. the problem is they're very expensive for complicated reasons involving scale of manufacture.

I hope the best for your friend; whether braille ends up being a part of it or not.

Ray McCarthy Jan 4

@modulux
Yes, I know what a Braille display is. I considered designing one in 1990s based on dotmatrix print head ideas.

I assume, maybe wrongly, that a embossed label maker like a Dymo, exists, using wider tape, to print Braille labels by hand. Maybe there are computer based ones too.

It's increasingly hard to learn new alphabets, Morse code and languages as you get older. So I'd assumed this was true of Braille.

He has macular degeneration & got him a video camera some years ago. No use.

@raymaccarthy Right, there are braille dymo printers, I've never heard of computer-based ones, but manual ones, sure. The tape is thicker and wider and the printer is bigger.

And yes, with braille it's not just the normal mental plasticity issues of learning a new script, but also the sensorial issues of learning to read with a sense you haven't used for that before; and for some people even being able to tell the dots apart can be a challenge.

Ray McCarthy Jan 4

@modulux
Hacking a manual one to work off a PC wouldn't be hard. Geared stepper motor to turn dial (if it's like a dymo), solenoid to punch and a sensor for one position (such as cut).

No driver needed. Emulate USB serial with €5 PIC micro.

Or make from scratch. You only need one column of punches and advance tape small amount in character and several times for character space.

Is it really only 2 columns and 3 rows? I guess once it was invented only the tiniest changes were possible.

@raymaccarthy In general yes, 2 columns, 3 rows, 6 dots altogether. Though there's computer braille which has 8 dots (2 columns, 4 rows). Most characters are the same but the lowest row is typically used for special characters and such.

Ray McCarthy Jan 4

@modulux
I since looked it up on Wikipedia, which didn't exist the last time I looked at Braille, same year as we got Web based Internet (1994).
Baudot was also a French invention , about 40 years after Braille (1870s). Changed in 1901 for typewriter style instead of piano key punch. It's for telegraph, though the first modern Telegraph that the computer keyboard is based on was 1928.
It's only 5 bits, but like Braille it has shift codes.
Both Baudot-Murray and ASCII has all holes for DEL.

mirabilos Jan 4

@modulux @raymaccarthy we should learn this in school. And by we I mean everyone.

Ray McCarthy Jan 4

@mirabilos @modulux
Braille, Typing, Morse and a 2nd common live language from age 7.
Don't waste effort on supposed Latin roots (USA), fake grammar / spelling rules or "Phonetics"(UK). Or Spelling Bees.
No marks off on essays or summaries for grammar, punctuation, dialect or spelling. Keep those for Language class, not Literature.

mirabilos Jan 4

@raymaccarthy @modulux not familiar enough with english school systems to comment on most (though I am glad I took Latin from age 10 on). Morse… I don’t know, would be useful, but I wonder if it’s not possible to use the plasticity of the younger age to teach other alphabets. I self-taught me the Greek one and now know half of Cyrillic or so, enough to get by in Bosnia anyway, but I wonder if getting kids to read Greek, Cyrillic and Arabic, just the scripts, would not be worth it.

At least from a local PoV. I know for the USA the figures are bad (75% read no better than a sixth-grader, 25% are practical analphabets).

As for the second live language, I know they’ve started teaching english in elementary school some time (~20 years?) ago.

Ray McCarthy Jan 4

@mirabilos @modulux
USA: Spanish & English
Ireland, Scotland & Wales: English, Local and a main Europe language.
England: English, French and 1 other European.
Greek & Cyrillic easier and more use than Arabic alphabet. Mandarin maybe more useful. Maybe easier than Arabic (learn 5000 symbols is 5000 words). We really learn words. Not much point in learning an alphabet without the words. I sort of learnt three additional alphabets and the one where I learned words too is the only one of use.

mirabilos Jan 4

@raymaccarthy @modulux nah, it makes it easier to pick up one of the languages later if you know the alphabet, but more importantly, things like signs, the menu at eateries, etc. and also labels on import products, communication with package delivery people whose $local_language is insufficient, …

mirabilos Jan 4

@raymaccarthy @modulux plus, for kids, could be fun trying to write one’s own language in the other alphabets (and abjad) as a game.

For arabic, even getting a bare idea how to read it early (RTL, shapes and ligatures and how to split the mesial forms again, and vocals) would be useful, because trying to understand these things later is hard.

CJK on the other hand is pure memorisation. (Which I hate, even did as kid already, but still.) Much more effort for much less gain.

Ray McCarthy Jan 4

@mirabilos @modulux
Maybe, but learning the language is many magnitudes harder than the alphabet. Arabic is a special case worse than Hebrew due to more forms of the same letter depending on if start, median, end and what letters connect.
Unless you want to read the Koran or live in an Arab dictatorship, it is far less important than Mandarin. I've never had to get Arabic translated.

mirabilos Jan 4

@raymaccarthy @modulux precisely because it is such a special case.

And, no, there are many more sites in life where I encounter different writing systems (even just OpenStreetMap, but also when travelling).

mirabilos Jan 4

@raymaccarthy @modulux could even help dyslexics, though I’m not an expert on that, but AIUI it’s a shape/similarity thing.

Brodeuse LucileDT Jan 5

@mirabilos @modulux @raymaccarthy same with sign language. I'm so angry that it's not taught in school to everyone!

mirabilos Jan 5

@luciledt @modulux @raymaccarthy right!

mirabilos Jan 4

@raymaccarthy @modulux I tried an audio book once. The sheer amount of input on the audio channel made me aggressive within minutes.

disorderlyf Jan 4

@modulux This is why I desperately wish more r&d (or if it already exists, that it's way more visible) on how to make braille readable on computers and phones was a thing. As nice as screen readers seem to be, I got the impression before I even knew how ubiquitous they are that they were a poor alternative to if you could somehow display a braille version of a webpage.

@disorderlyf There are refreshable braille displays, but they're extremely expensive, because the only mechanism that has been found that works well enough in terms of speed, durability, and power draw, uses the piezoelectric effect; and building those cells is very fiddly. It requires very large complex machinery, but braille display runs are small (maybe 5000 units at most) so the per-unit cost is large.

disorderlyf Jan 4

@modulux I do wonder if there's some way haptic feedback could be used as a cheaper alternative, but my admittedly woefully ignorant view of such a technology is that even if it worked, the fidelity needed goes right back to being expensive again.

@modulux I work with UK university age students. Sadly most of our visually impaired students are never taught Braille even with progressive impairments or very slow visual-reading speeds/capacities. Many get no O&M either.

Your NFB article sounded so familiar. A VI child constantly babied by a full-time adult rather than taught skills.

We get many low-vision students who get a nasty shock at university as the disability support and university simply won't fund full-time adult assistance.

Microblog Castellano Jan 4

You are making me remember of a deaf student who was barely taught sign language when kid. She learnt a bit of it in the years she attended our school, but she lacked any autonomy.

Woozle Hypertwin Jan 4

@modulux Heck, braille might be a useful thing for a lot of fully-sighted people to know. I'm thinking of all the times I've reached around the back of a piece of hi-fi or computing equipment, trying to find the right socket while using my memory of the layout (but reversed) as a guide, or maybe looking through a small mirror. If the sockets were all labeled in braille, on the other hand...

Caveat: It might or might not be practical (can braille characters still be legible when they're as small as most electronic socket-labels?), but I have to wonder. ...and I can't think there aren't other cases where it would be even more obviously a plus.

TLDR: it's kind of silly (at best) to withhold a tool from someone for fear that it will make them less functional.

@woozle Depends on the socket size, but in some cases, sure. Labelling the types of USB on a board for example would be doable. Some headphones have an L or R character in braille on them (Sennheiser does this, for instance). I am sometimes a bit amused, no offence meant, at how helpless most sighted people are in the dark. If they can't see something they don't even bother exploring by touch and so on.

Woozle Hypertwin Jan 4

@modulux Now that you mention it -- I remember just a week or so ago when I was trying to put in a screw from a really awkward angle (on the other side of a board), it actually worked better to just close my eyes and focus on the feel of it rather than trying to judge the angle from what I could see (which didn't include the actual contact point between screw and driver).

mirabilos Jan 4

@woozle @modulux reminds me of when I was trying to learn to throw a basketball at the net in school P.E. (which sucked), and the only time I actually hit it was when I had the eyes closed.

But then, basketball at school was also when someone else threw the ball full force at the back of my head in frustration over me being so bad at it, and the teacher doing literally nothing about it (but at least didn’t complain when I refused to continue to participate for the remainder of the year, I had to still be present but could keep to the bench).

Woozle Hypertwin Jan 4

Sounds like the middle school I went to. :-P

mirabilos Jan 4

@woozle @modulux maybe, but I don’t live in new caledonia ;)

Woozle Hypertwin Jan 4

@mirabilos neither do I -- but ether way, it almost certainly was not the same school :D

mirabilos Jan 4

@woozle @modulux huh? Your profile says NC…

Woozle Hypertwin Jan 4

North Carolina :-)
(...I guess I should stop being so Americentrian and add "US" after that, huh...)