Hazel WeaklyThe two hardest problems in Computer Science are
1. Human communication
2. Getting people in tech to believe that human communication is important
nadja@hazelweakly The third hardest is I presume then to get people in tech to understand that 90% of all ‘technical’ problems are instead socio-political ones and that neither political nor social problems have technical solutions?
Tyrone Slothrop@dequbed @hazelweakly a lot of people in tech would do well to realize that they’re essentially plumbers and bricklayers, working for a few rich landlords.
@slothrop @hazelweakly and both parts of that. Tech people are *just* plumbers and bricklayers. They help build infrastructure but they're no better than a bricklayer building a bridge.
Kat S@dequbed @slothrop @hazelweakly ...which leads to looking back at the bridges you've built, and hoping they've been used more by good people to do good things, than by any other kind. But also being afraid to look.
derptron@dequbed @slothrop @hazelweakly We are engineers and scientists.
Fuck the haters. ;)
Ain't nothing wrong with being a plumber. The equivalent in IT would probably be the network administrators. Similar levels of education and certification requirements. The plumber is probably more regulated by law, but the expectations are similar.
I really don't understand the human obsession with labeling wide groups of other humans and then group hating on them. It's weird. We're just people.
Alex@crazyeddie @dequbed @slothrop @hazelweakly
They're not saying there is something wrong with being a plumber or a bricklayer. Those are both artisanal professions that build infrastructure, whereas the average software engineer is trained to view themselves more as a capitalist. Of course, we aren't. We are also members of a largely artisanal profession.
iwein@nap @crazyeddie @dequbed @slothrop @hazelweakly i did a double take at "*just* plumbers" as well. (Pretty sure not intended negatively in this case, but could be more positively worded, I think)
Given the right incentives, both plumbers and software engineers can do some very useful stuff, and solve some hairy problems. Also, I met some of the best and most compassionate communicators among craftspeople. Let's celebrate that and let go of the stereotypes!
@iwein @nap @crazyeddie @slothrop @hazelweakly It could, but the programmers that need to see this post are the kinds of programmers that consistently think they're better than plumbers, and often better than blue-collar workers in general. See some of the other replies for examples :)
Mind you, I was a mechanic first, a machining lab tech second and became a programmer third, out of necessity more than free will, and I consider plumbers and bricklayers as much more important than programmers.
Mind you, I was a mechanic first, a machining lab tech second and became a programmer third, out of necessity more than free will, and I consider plumbers and bricklayers as much more important than programmers.
Passenger@dequbed @iwein @nap @crazyeddie @slothrop @hazelweakly
As a data engineer I often self-describe as being basically a plumber.
The difference, I think, is that plumbers actually achieve the holy grail of applying a technical solution to a social problem, specifically the social problem of having poop in the drinking water.
@passenger @iwein @nap @crazyeddie @slothrop @hazelweakly do they though? The solution to the social problem is the result of a lot of people tirelessly working together to keep a lot of infrastructure running that's aggressively hidden from public view. A plumber gives you running water as much as milk comes from the supermarket fridge ^^
Marco van Burgsteden 🍋Plumbers and bricklayers do essential work. The problem with managing sociotechnical systems through the tech/engineering lens is that the ultimate societal goals tend to get lost as the job becomes less and less prioritised by politics and social issues, but more and more by technical optimisations of the system.
So tech ppl need to either start condidering the ethics of choices they make, and involve sociopolitical stakeholders more.
Conversely, political and social issues requiring technical tools to help solve them, should be able to build on the craftsmanship and experience of techies to deliver stuff that works and that can be maintained.
It is hard work to keep these two worlds connected and positively constructive.
Bee O'Problem 
@dequbed @hazelweakly reminds me of someone crowing about how blockchain would magically solve issues of warehouses losing packages. Literally zero awareness of stuff like theft, workers not filling paperwork properly, stuff getting missed on the back of a shelf, boxes falling off of conveyors etc. Warehousing databases don't lose inventory, people do.
Zillion@beeoproblem @dequbed @hazelweakly It's not (entirely) the people, but the system that keeps the people poor enough to steal, too tired and hurried to be careful and to take care of each other and check each other's work, and that prevents fixing the shelves.