@eevee
Mozilla would like to fuck over ita users, however, it doesn't know if they're resolved.

If the users are resolved, they will retaliate by switching to Chrome, which will hurt the users, but it will hurt Mozilla more, so Mozilla would like to avoid this.

If the users are not resolved, they will keep using Firefox, which means Mozilla can fuck over its users at no cost.

Help Mozilla decide whether to fuck over ita users or not.

@anthropy I haven't looked into how good these are. I've heard that the ones in the past didn't have the best track record wrt security patches, but idk maybe you can sandbox the browser to mitigate that, or maybe the newer ones are better at that.

But yeah, they'd be a better move if available.

@anthropy
although now that I think of it...

They're not causing Mozilla to lose influence over the web standards. Especially because these forks follow upstream Firefox changes. So they're not as strong of a signal.

They still might be a good choice though.

@anthropy
It's both, but suppose it's only about how much Mozilla suffers.

How does Mozilla suffer when you switch to a soft-fork?

@anthropy
It's not suffering alone. I don't understand it well enough to be able to explain, but here's an example:

1. US president says he will invade Greenland

Yeah, whatever, talk is cheap. Not a credible threat.

2. US president says he will invade Venezuela, and moves a bunch of warships there.

Moving the ships is costly - it takes a lot of time, and now they can't be doing other thngs elsewhere.

That's a more credible threat.

@anthropy
A deer grows large antlers to signal strength.

Growing large antlers is a sacrifice - they're heavy, get caught on things, and consume nutrients that could've been spent on more muscles.

But that's what makes large antlers a good signal.

If large antlers were cheap to grow, every deer would do that, and having large antlers wouldn't mean anything.

@wolf480pl .. I think the main factor you're describing there is military force and facing existential threats as means of convincing, not so much the 'effort' ..

but while I think personal suffering CAN be convincing (e.g hunger striking), I'd argue that here it compares more to something like "batteries are bad so I'll get the dirtiest diesel and suffer the consequences of global warming and polluted air, that'll teach them!" tbh 😅

@anthropy
well

A strike (not even hunger strike) hurts both workers (they don't get paid) and the employer (no work gets done) and also the society at large (less goods are being produced, so fewer people can have their needs met).

Yet it may be necessary to convince the employer that the workers' demands cannot be ignored.

I think the power dynamics in case of Firefox are similar to those in a strike.

@wolf480pl well again, I think there's a balance, I think switching to a soft fork is plenty signal, as there are plenty reasons to switch away from Chrome too after their manifest v3 shenanigans

and maybe the timing of my second post was unfortunate but i want to re-emphasize that if you want to go the hunger striking route, you should use neither Chrome nor Firefox forks, despite the degraded experience, because Chrome is comfort food

@anthropy
If a significant (from Mozilla's perpsective) number of people switched to Lynx or Servo, I think that could make Mozilla afraid, yes.

But I think getting a bunch of people to switch for a day, all on the same day, to any non-Gecko browser, even if it's Chrome, could be just as effective and easier to pull off.

@anthropy
Also, I agree that giving Goolge more power over the internet is a bad thing.

But it's also bad for Mozilla.

@wolf480pl idk, I get that sentiment, but to me that just sounds like undoing all the progress of putting pressure on google to not be an asshole when it comes to the open web.

In that sense it also feels weird because Chrome is also full of AI, so if you're trying to give an anti-AI signal then switching to a Chromium derivative or a Gecko derivative has little difference, and it also again undoes the progress of making the web more open IMHO