Anil DashLOL I stepped away from Mastodon for a couple hours and everybody is VERY MAD that I made jokes about CLIs. I use them every day, guys, it's gonna be okay. I promise I did not hurt Zork's feelings. It is, however, a factual statement that CLIs are not discoverable user interfaces and they are a poor choice for mainstream audiences; this debate was settled long ago.
synlogic4242@anildash for decades I've been using CLI tools which are highly discoverable, far more than typical GUI apps
David Fleetwood - RG Admin@synlogic4242 @anildash If I put a regular person in front of a CLI for a system they have never used before, they will be utterly lost. I'm glad you can magically know about grep and all, but most people wouldn't know where to begin.
@synlogic4242 @anildash Um, so that helps me find the damn command how exactly?
A system that requires people to memorize large numbers of commands and consult often out of date or untranslated help files (which themselves tend to be written assuming the user is experienced) are the opposite of discoverable.
@reflex @synlogic4242 yeah, -- help after … what, exactly? A random group of characters?
@anildash @synlogic4242 The fact that grep is a thing after all this time, and the fact that I still struggle with practically using it despite using Linux off and on since Slackware in 1995 really says it all. Like congrats to those who have pulled it all off but nobody should have to do this just to use their damn computer effectively.
I think many in the space view the mastering of such unnecessary complexity as a badge of honor and a way to keep others out of their clubhouse.
but I find CLI tools the ideal way to work fast, efficiently, productively, with high composeability and reuse. massive bang for the buck. whereas with a GUI its like starting with training wheels attached, and lead ballast weights, then... *never* being allowed to remove them or grow out of them. I can (and have) written entire books in vi/vim. the number of times I see youngsters reinventing the wheel with yet another GUI or web/cloud/mobile thing is breathtaking when not sad and hilarious. "Guys, I just made a way to write code in a browser, OMG guys, and its super discoverable and AI-infused guys!"
*meh* ;-)
@synlogic4242 @anildash That's very cool for you. I also enjoy the cli for a lot of things.But it does not change the fact that the way it's designed at all levels it's inaccessible to the vast majority. That could change if those in this space chose to change it. VMS showed intuitive clis were possible. But there is no will to do so.
It is true that the CLI is very powerful and useful, it's too bad that the community does not wish to make it accessible to all.
@reflex @anildash we agree there are dials to be turned which can make it easier or harder. for CLIs and GUIs. heck I'm a believer every GUI app should ship with its own integrated docs, search tutorials etc. Its fairly cheap on the margins to add it to the feature set. Just as I think every CLI should have something like --help and man pages. Heck a good pattern for a CLI is, in the absence of any args it should print at least a minimal --help. I'm building a new server in recent months and even as a network server -- super geeky -- I ensure its CLI makes an effort to help teach/remind users how to use it and get bootstrapped. I try to do right by "my future self" and assume I'll revisit it in 5 years say and forgotten how to use it. A time capsule message to myself. This in turn helps others (not me) get bootstrapped. The problem is this tactic can exist in GUIs too but... their users will still always be handicapped. Until and unless they make the jump to CLIs, APIs, REPLs or other TUIs.
@synlogic4242 @anildash IMO a CLI should have discoverable and obvious commands to do all significant functions that one would need a CLI for. Help should be standardized and multilingual in the top 100 or so languages, and the commands themselves should be multilingual, copy in english makes no sense to someone who speaks Thai as their primary language, the commands should be localized as well as the help files.
All should be built to work with accessibility tools as well, as should output.
@synlogic4242 @anildash Why is that more reasonable than to just, you know, localize commands?