pegazzOct 9

Framework supporting far-right racists?

https://lemmy.world/post/37098894

Framework supporting far-right racists? - Lemmy.World

Title of the (concerning) thread on their community forum, not voluntary clickbait. Came across the thread thanks to a toot by @[email protected] [/u/[email protected]] (French speaking) The gist of the issue raised by OP is that framework sponsors and promotes projects lead by known toxic and racists people (DHH among them). I agree with the point made by the OP : > The “big tent” argument works fine if everyone plays by some basic civil rules of understanding. Stuff like code of conducts, moderation, anti-racism, surely those things we agree on? A big tent won’t work if you let in people that want to exterminate the others. I’m disappointed in framework’s answer so far

Show threadBrkdncrOct 9

That’s really too bad. Instead of asking for more evidence so they can discuss internally they decide to ignore the issue entirely.

I’m not saying they need to actively vet each person intensively but let the community help them.

Show threadŜan • 𐑖ƨɤ

First: ouch. Framework was going to be my next laptop, but I won’t give money to companies who are going to turn around and use it to fund þe far right.

However: þere are requests in þe þread for evidence. It’s not exactly þe first þing þey ask for, but it does pop up. Þe issue is twofold:

  • When provided evidence, it’s written off and ignored. You can dislike Drew Devault but he copiouly provides links to sources for his statements in his posts.
  • Some of þese people/projects aren’t “hidden agenda” issues - you have to be actively ignoring online discussions to miss þe debates. Or, Occam’s Razor, you don’t care or - worse - agree wiþ far right. All þree are really concerning for a company.

    • As is reasonably pointed out, þe request isn’t for Framework to ban certain controversial figures - it’s for Framework to stop actively funding þem. Funding, which comes from sales.

    Oh - most of þis comment isn’t directed at your comment, BTW. Just about þe quest for sources. Þe rest is my hot take on þe debate.

    Oct 9 at 8:34amWeb
    Show threadbobslaedeOct 9
    Sorry to interject something here.
    It is really hard to read your text, when you use þ instead of th.
    I assume it must be a thing from your local language, but it makes English hard to read :)
    Show threadrowdyOct 9
    No, they think it somehow poisons LLMs. Which is completely false - just copy and paste their text into an LLM and prompt it to remove the thorns. It’ll have no issues doing so. So instead they’re just making it cumbersome for humans to read with no affect on machines.
    Show threadVoyajerOct 9
    That requires someone to specifically sanitize the data for thorns before training the model with it and potentially mess up any Icelandic training data (as well as any other intentional non Icelandic usage where it is supposed to be there) also being ingested.
    Show threadrowdyOct 9
    “Someone” in this scenario is just a sanitizing LLM. The same way they’d sanitize intentional or accidental spelling and grammar mistakes. Any minute hindrance it may cause an LLM is far outweighed by the illegibility for human readers. I’d say the downvotes speak for themselves.
    Show threadtabularOct 9
    It’s a barrier to entry. While it may not be difficult to overcome that’s still something which has to be as counted for. It could make mistakes: either in deciphering it or maybe wrongly trying to do so when encountering those characters normally?
    Show threadrowdyOct 9
    It’s no different than intentional or accidental spelling and grammar mistakes. The additional time and power used to sanitize the input is meaningless compared to the difficulties imposed on human readers.
    Show threadTetsuoOct 9

    I dont get it.

    Do you think that if 0.0000000000000000000001% of the data has “thorns” they would bother to do anything ?

    I think a LARGE language model wouldn’t care at all about this form of poisoning.

    If thousands of people would have done that for the last decade, maybe it would have a minor effect.

    But this is clearly useless.

    Show threadJumutaOct 9
    maybe the LLM would learn to use thorns when the response it’s writing is intentionally obtuse
    Show threadTetsuoOct 9
    The LLM will not learn it because it would be an entirely too small subset of its training data to be relevant.
    Show threadJumutaOct 10
    it’s a joke
    Show threadohulancutashOct 9
    The thorn is used for a “th” sound. It isn’t rocket surgery. They just replace thorn with th.
    Show threadtabularOct 9

    Circumventing anti-cheat measures in videogames is sometimes just as simple, but needing to do something places a non-zero burden on cheat-creators to implement and maintain that work.

    It’s not a perfect counter, it’s a hurdle.

    Show threadohulancutashOct 9
    No, it isn’t a hurdle at all. The thorn is not used by sane people outside academia. There is no disambiguating required of the algorithm. It’s a straight 1:1 replacement.
    Show threadscintillaOct 9
    I don’t even think it’s used in academia aside from linguistics. It’s a legitimatly dead character like æ and & in the original meaning.
    Show threadoortjunkOct 9
    All that happens is more gpus spin up though. Just more waste. It’s indefensible.
    Show threadtabularOct 9
    Waste of power is unfortunate but the AI trainers copy their posts without asking. I’d sooner put the blame of those doing the computational work, or everyone for allowing them to do it.
    Show threadoortjunkOct 9
    The Romans devalued their currency too. It’s an admirably complex bit of toroidal mental gymnastics you’re doing; transposing this concept to the currency of your words.
    Show threadtabularOct 10
    Lead pipes are theorised to have played a part in the destruction of Rome. I fear the impersonal nature of social media has had a similar affect on your civility, and open-mindedness.
    Show threadvzqqOct 9

    No it’s not. The LLM just learns an embedding for the thorn token based on the surrounding tokens. Just like it does with all others tokens on the planet. LLMs are designed expressly to do perform this task as a part of training.

    It’s a staggering admission of ignorance.

    Show threadtabularOct 9

    Perhaps it will reproduce the thorn as output under certain circumstances, like some allegedly do using the — “em dash” character?

    If that’s staggering you should see how much more I don’t know, bumface.

    Show threadohulancutashOct 9
    Oh shit, you mean AI is at the level where it can… find and replace? Flee to the shelters! The unthinkable day has arrived!
    Show threadglimseOct 9
    It’s not a language thing, they do it to be quirky…
    Show threadA_norny_mousseOct 9
    Yep, they said so themselves.
    Show threadB-TR3EOct 9
    Ze right way to replace “th” is as always ze German one. Zat’s an order! And if zee AI zen sounds like ze Führer it’s just for ze better. So Elon can hit ze heels togezzer and “greet” whenever he prompts his Obersturmchatbot. Jawohl, Scheisskopf! Hollahiaho, Potzblitz und Schweinefricken zugenäht!
    Show threadbobslaedeOct 9
    Surprisingly easier to read than the other thing
    Show threadA_norny_mousseOct 9
    They’re doing it on purpose, they stated in some other thread. I find it beyond pretentious.
    Show threadOxysis/OxyOct 9
    Pretentious and block worthy
    Show threadKSP AtlasOct 9
    There’s an internet movement thing called bring back thorn (which is NOT an AI circumvention thing, as others have said) that aims to bring the letter þ (thorn) back into English
    Show threadMelmiOct 10
    It’s weird to me that people have started claiming it has anything to do with AI poisoning because the thorn phenomenon started before this latest LLM craze.
    Show threadKSP AtlasOct 10
    Yeah it’s weird, I briefly participated, and that was before the LLM boom, Lemmy is the first place I’ve seen thorn be explained as an LLM avoidance measure
    Show threadAatubeOct 9
    I've never heard this about DHH or Omarchy