I don't get why some men are obsessed with "proving" that a woman on the internet must be a man, with no proof.

https://lemmy.cafe/post/21154023

I don't get why some men are obsessed with "proving" that a woman on the internet must be a man, with no proof. - Lemmy Cafe

My friend joined a car forum, because she’s into cars. She wanted to ask about car components, and the thread got about 14 pages in just a few days, but most people weren’t actually answering her questions, they just kept accusing her of being a man because the forum apparently once had someone “pretending to be a woman”. They kept calling her he/him, even though she said that she is a she (she’s cis). She’s 23 and most of the userbase on the mentioned forum are men in their 30’s and 40’s. She was being civil throughout the entire thing mentioning that it’s rude to misgender someone. Apparently the way she talked was too “proper” to be “girly” and people responded that her knowledge of car components was a “red flag” that she must secretly be a man. She pointed out that she doesn’t know why they’re so obsessed over a random stranger’s genitals and they replied back with “you’re the one who mentioned genitals, we think you’re the obsessed one here”. I wish that I was joking. Reminds me of the internet 20 years ago.

Same men obsessed with making a woman prove she’s a woman to use a restroom. Just plain weird.

Honestly, I think that one of the reasons for such scenarios may be that it’s easier to try to demolish the idea of there being an actual woman present than accept that she has no romantic/whatever interest in them. And I don’t think this is driven primarily by an ego impulse, but by hopelessness.

Of course, there are many other things which factor into such situations (a partially justified caution in the example you’ve described, for instance, as catfishing can end up being very painful for vulnerable people, even in “milder” forms), like societal norms (“gurls aren’t supposed to like icky boy things!”), maybe some elitism, some group resistance, a sort of hazing, etc. But I still can’t shake the feeling that even these stem from hopelessness in various ways.

I’m sorry your friend experienced this type of behaviour, and I’m sorry it did some splash damage on you as well… It is, indeed, very disappointing to see such behaviours still being not only prevalent, but even frequently reinforced as standard nowadays… It’s a disappointingly hostile world in many places. But if I may point out the silver lining in this, at least nobody can take away your friend’s passion!

Whenever I see questions like this I remember this study: Video game experiment leads to insights into sexism .

TLDR is that it’s a skill issue. Lower ranked male players are more likely to be misogynistic than higher ranking players. Read into that what you will.

Video game experiment leads to insights into sexism

Using a popular video game, Jeffrey Kuznekoff, Miami Middletown assistant professor, and his Australian-based colleague gained insights that may unlock some of the doors blocking gender equality in the workplace.

My friend joined a car forum, because she’s into cars.

…and…

Apparently the way she talked was too “proper” to be “girly” and people responded that her knowledge of car components was a “red flag” that she must secretly be a man.

With this last comment right here it sounds like she is fairly knowledgeable about cars and the men on that community see “car knowledge” as their personal domain and expertise. If (gasp!) a woman knew more than a man on a car thing, then the man would be emasculated!! Since she was demonstrating knowledge, and perhaps more knowledge than some men, the men could only accept they were “beating” by another man and therefor they themselves wouldn’t be emasculated.

tldr; the men in that community are terrified of being perceived as “less manly”.

Not trying to be sexist, but why does it matter shes a woman on this forum in the first place? It sucks, but there are places on the internet where just stating you’re a woman gets you extra attention or help from desperate men. So maybe the forum is just tired of people coming on, stating their a woman whether true or not, and getting help way quicker than if no gender was to be said at all?

I know it paints me in a bad light but whatever, there is no reason to go on the internet and state your gender unless you’re looking for extra attention. Your friend could have just asked the question and left out gender talk completely. There was no need to state she was a woman.

I know this a pretty sexist example, but viva la dirt league put out a gaming video explaining why some guys are over it.

When you're just a girl

YouTube
Come on, dude. Mentioning my gender has only ever gotten me harassment.
I’m sorry to hear that
Did you read the post? They misgendered her unknowingly and she corrected them, which is perfectly normal. That then became 17 pages of misgendering.

which is perfectly normal.

Not on a car forum. That’s straight up asking for trouble.

Ok, but isn’t that the problem? Expecting misogyny and accepting misogyny are not the same.

Like, if you knew someone who was racist, and then they assumed you were their race, and you corrected them that you were not, and then they start in with bigotry and shit, that doesn’t make you the problem, even if you did know that he was a bigot and going to be shitty and hateful.

Nobody should have to pretend to be something they aren’t to avoid harassment.

I’m not justifying it - just explaining why it happens. If you walk into a male-dominated space and start lecturing people about gender pronouns, this is the reaction you’re going to get. If they’d stuck to talking about cars, it wouldn’t have happened in the first place.

It’s also worth noting that some languages don’t have gendered pronouns at all - Finnish, for example. We use the same pronoun for men and women, so when I say “he” in English, I might be referring to a man or just a person in general. I know that’s not grammatically correct in English, but for me - and probably for a lot of others - “he” doesn’t automatically mean male. It’s just how the pronoun from our native language maps over.

Correcting people about your gender is "lecturing people about gender pronouns" now? Really? Seems to me like a lot of men need to be less fragile. What snowflakes.
Listen, lady, if you’re ok with men talking down to you because you lack testosterone, then I’m not going to tell you how to live.
I thought I was being perfectly polite in my response. I don’t understand how this place can be so full of jerks.
Well this forum is primarily men, so maybe coming here and being a woman, you should have expected that?

No, this is just you being mean on purpose - and a hypocrite on top of it.

I don’t get what you gain from acting like a total jerk toward complete strangers who haven’t been hostile to you in any way. There was absolutely no reason to make it personal, but that’s where you chose to take it. I hope you’re satisfied with yourself now. Sure showed me.

I’m not being mean, I’mexplaining why people are being mean to you. I’m not responsible for your feelings, and this is the treatment you should expect being a woman coming into a traditionally masculine space.
I’m not trying to say guys acting that way was the right course of action, I was just giving my two cents of why it may be happening.

Unfortunately, much of the car enthusiast community is filled with extremely bigoted and closed minded people. It’s a big problem.

If you want, feel free to tell your friend about the Superfast Matt Discord server (Matt is a popular car YouTuber, and has a very active car enthusiast community on his Discord). They have a strict zero tolerance policy for that kind of shit, and everyone there is very accepting of new people. She can find an invite at discord dot gg slash superfastmatt

(Not trying to advertise, just hoping to connect your friend with the kind of people she’s looking for!)

Guys can be strangely insecure about being “a man”. If you tell yourself that you’re a manly man because you’re into cars which is a manly thing, then when a woman is also into that you either have to reject the uncomfortable idea or start asking yourself some more difficult questions about what being a man really means to you.
There are people trying to do genitalia checks in bathrooms in supermarkets. Americans are seriously fucked in the head right now.
It seems like nonsense to even be wasting time arguing about whether she’s a woman or not on a car forum, but how did it even come up?
They misgendered her unknowingly and she corrected them as the post explains. Then came the 17 pages of misgendering and discussion.

I didn’t read the post that way, but that makes sense. I read it as they were calling her he/him because they had decided she wasn’t a she after it had already come up.

Regardless they are such a bunch of fragile gatekeeping man babies. Even if it was a man who was asking to be called by female pronouns, why would they care? It’s irrelevant to the topic.

Even if she introduced herself as "I'm a 23yo girl" I think it's completely fine, I bet there's tons of posts that start with "I'm a 40yo dude living in X state that decided to buy this bad boy, I've been having issues with..." And just keep going and no one bats an eye.

I agree, fragile babies.

I think that’s an odd way to start a post asking for car advice, but regardless the advice should hinge more on the vehicle and the problem rather than the sex of the advised. Having a dick has never helped me solve a problem with my cars …
Belief without proof is faith, and faith is religion, or cult–I feel like there’s something there.
Do you know they’re all men trying to prove this?
True, of course, true, but I’ve talked to people like this, they just accuse you of being a man a second time.
All people on the Internet are men.

I don’t think a most real women would bring up the fact that they’re a woman - especially on a car forum. Not that they’d hide it, but just wouldn’t bring it up, the same way most men don’t bring up that they’re men. When someone makes a point of mentioning it, it immediately raises suspicion, and if they get defensive about it, that’s another red flag. Throw in a gendered username or an avatar on top of that and you’ve got all the hallmarks of a guy pretending to be a woman.

I know some women are genuinely into cars - I even know one personally - but that doesn’t mean they can’t act like men. And most men have been fooled enough times online that we’ve just gotten pretty cynical about it.

Let me Introduce you to my friend The Paragraph.

As someone who’s been online since BBS’s etc, and early days of online gaming…

The earliest calls of “Tits or GTFO” in gaming was a response to women bringing gender into the mix – this was back even before voice comms were common. What would typically happen is a woman would ask for special treatment/consideration, because they were a girl, and guys would respond by basically saying “Unless you’re willing to prove you’re a girl online, we don’t owe you any additional courtesy”, in an incredibly crude fashion. Unfortunately that sort of seems to have evolved in some areas to be just straight up misogyny.

But, even demanding polite / respectful language, is something men don’t tend to do to each other online on most forums. A woman or a minority demographic demanding that language be changed because “they” are there, is basically asserting special privilege. Gender is entirely a construct in an online / virtual space, where anyone can claim to be anything, so someone bringing it in / forcing it in to the conversation is basically an attempt to force others to change patterns based on your whims. If gender doesnt matter, don’t get fussed demanding to be addressed like a woman.

Its sort of like, consider an old timey garage, with pictures of pin-up calendar girls on the walls, guys covered in grease, farts un-checked, crude language and swearing all over the place. Add a couple women to the work crew with giant fine-prone govt orgs to back them up, suddenly all that ‘guy freedom’ goes away / shifts. In an online space, there’re no genders unless they’re forced into the conversation – but once they are, you’re not as free to be open / honest about things as a guy. You gotta hold your farts. Guys would rather be free, so they push back against gender entering those spaces – any talk of ‘gender equality’ is very similar to talk of masculine suppression.

As both a guy and someone that goes back to the BBS days, shut the fuck up
Sounds like you’re pretty sensitive about this topic.

Hm? Not particularly. I do have an interest in the gender stuff in politics a bit more, and in the workforce – in part because I had my early-life career goals dramatically changed after receiving rejection letters explicitly stating I was removed from the government worker app pool here in Canada for not identifying as either a woman, or a minority race. Almost all the friends I graduated with were in those categories, and got easy job placements with worse transcripts and less prior work experience. So I recognise that my personal history has a reason for a negative bias to these topics that others may not have experienced. That said, my personal take for what it’s worth, is that DEI and equity efforts are worthwhile/valuable, but that their implementation is poorly done, and is indiscernible from discrimination on an individual basis. So, not black and white as it were.

For online discussions, I do think it’s misguided to get annoyed about gendering, and that introducing explicit gender oriented stuff causes equity issues in weird, unnecessary ways. So I disagree with both the idiots going overboard about gender stuff on a car forum, and the op attempting to claim gendered-privilege on a digital forum. I think it’s just as reasonable for someone to take a stance of “You’re a man until proven otherwise online”, as it is for someone to get pissed off that people don’t believe their a stated gender of some sort; none of that gender stuff has much point in a digital space, so they’re equally silly. And while we talk about toxic masculinity, we also fail to really coalesce behind a definition of positive masculinity – and we don’t tend to talk as much about toxic female traits.

Another item worth highlighting, particularly for the ops case, is that it’s been a known ‘thing’ amongst people on the net for a long time, that the best way to get help for something like a problem, was to post up a question on a ‘female’ looking account, and then to respond to your own post with a male account and an incorrect answer talking down to the woman for being stupid. White-knights tend show up to make corrections and hand-hold the supposed woman, downvote the mean bad man, and so on. That sort of structure is another issue introduced by bringing gender into digital spaces – but because it tends to work in favour of women it’s generally ignored/accepted.

Feminism, in both meat space and digital space, isn’t about equality but about removing pain points for women exclusively – so cases of discrimination that benefit women / disadvantage men are generally ignored by supposed ‘equity’ movements that are fundamentally pushed by feminist interests. That disjointed equity/feminist division is one reason, I’d theorize at least, that things like the manosphere and harsh women’s rights pushbacks gained popularity in some segments. If you’re going to bring gender online, and complain about the issues women face when they attempt to assert their gender, without looking at how it impacts others’ experience of those online spaces, nor are you looking at the positives they get for asserting that gender, I think it’s wrong. I try to maintain a more egalitarian mindset, or at least I like to think I do, where people online should generally all be treated equitably… as non-gendered faceless anonymous entities.

And to that end, as gender doesn’t matter for posting to some car forum, the op should’ve just posted stuff as a non-gendered faceless blob. Then she’d get treated as a non-gendered faceless blob. No one would care to respond to her, or rather, they’d respond to her about as much as they’d respond to a guy, or any other non-gendered blob.

Do you expect people to read this and think, “Wow, she hit the nail on the head with that 5 paragraph essay explaining why she’s not particularly sensitive?”

No, I expect most people are so addle minded at this point that they can’t read, or write, more than a whatever the character limit is on twitter/x these days. People look for short pithy remarks and zingers, and then they whine and bitch about click-bait titles etc. The general readership/audience of any social media platform, is pretty lowest common denominator in terms of their appetites.

But if someone asks me a question, I’ll still try to put together a somewhat thought out and transparent remark to clarify my position.

I ain’t reading all that because I know c/girlsarentreal but Nice try

Idk, but why would I care what people think I am? Think I’m a dude? Cool. Think I’m a chick? Nice.

It’s actually kinda fun trying to be so neutral in your phrasing that nobody got any idea. I’ve been an active player on a certain long term game and haven’t slipped up once in like 15+ years.

Stop caring. Use it to your advantage.

As a person who figured out I'm not entirely cis partially because of feeling exactly this way, I just wanted to let you know you may want to look into non-binary identities.

Holy f—

Just chill my guy. Not everyone cares about your genitals on the Internet. It’s a pretty normal posture to have.

Don't be an asshole about this. I'm just saying that the whole "taking joy in not being easily identified as male or female" might not be a wholly cis feeling. I said nothing about genitals, nor did I insist that this person must be non-binary. I just put forth a suggestion.
Not that you had a worthwhile or intelligent point to make, but the fact that you censored the word fuck just makes it all the more lame. Maybe put on some big boy pants before you talk to the group next time.
Not to be contrarian, but the internet is full of people who care a lot about genitals. Pro, con, admirers, haters, artisans, maintenance, genitals are always a popular topic on the internet…
Same, realized I enjoyed being ambiguously gendered a bit too much.
Underdeveloped ego.
LOL. A few weeks ago I came across an interesting coffee break discussion at work. Turns out, we have two women who are almost car mechanics. They can do all sorts of car maintenance most men would just outsource to a professional. They’re also good at knitting and mending worn out clothes. These women are actually far more competent than men would expect.
Those fuckos wanted pics to whack off to

I wish that I was joking. Reminds me of the internet 20 years ago.

Because it is the internet from 20 years ago. The idiots who made DotA 1 toxic 20 years ago are now in a 30-40-somethings making a car forum toxic.