Mastodawn

I think part of the reason why #Pokemon Gen 2 has such a lasting legacy is because it created this sense of world that I can't think of being matched.

Pokemon has had a habit of name dropping other regions in games, NPCs in Kalos saying they are visiting from Hoenn, etc

It's one thing to get these cute little nods, but Gen 2 went a step further, which sure we could chalk up to nostalgia maxing fan service, being able to explore a mostly like for like recreation of the Kanto region.

But it also helps create this congruous world. You are not just exploring a region, you are exploring the world of Pokemon. Even if Johto is just one short surf route away from Kanto.

Besides the surf route, there is also the ship between Olivine and Vermillion and the Magnet Train between Goldenrod and Saffron. It's all world building that makes the two regions feel like a complete unit.

Was this a thinly veiled ramble to justify a Magnet Rail screenshot? I mean... Partially...

Ishambard Jul 23, 2025

I have been mulling this over for the last couple of days.

Articulation has been somewhat challenging, but I think I can do this.

Johto is an underdeveloped region, not in the sense that it is poorly crafted or lacks character. In fact, it oozes character. It has this distinctly rural feel to it.

A number of routes between towns are poorly established, forcing potential encounters on travellers. The notable exceptions are around Goldenrod and the route to Olivine city, both of which are your major transportation hubs for the region.

No place puts more focus on this than the 3-way crossroad between Violet city, Ecruteak, and the national park. It is a thin, narrow, wooded path. Sure, it is used to gate players with Sudowoodo in the way, requiring you to take the long route, but there are other ways this could have been accomplished. After Sudowoodo is gone, you are still left with this surprisingly narrow connector between major locations.

(1/?)

Ishambard Jul 23, 2025

Something else that I think adds to this vibe and helps create a more believable, wider Pokemon world.

To my knowledge, Johto is the only region to date that shares a league venue with another region. This adds this sense of gravitas to the Indigo Plateau and the Elite 4 that are housed there.
These aren't regional Pokemon Masters. This is a national level venue.

It wouldn't be hard to imagine other local regions coming to the Plateau to compete.

This makes Johto more rural aesthetic more realistic in my mind. It exists in tandem with Kanto and a larger scale league than in isolation.

It does raise questions on the whole league/champion thing, but I try not to think about that.

Later generations, despite being labelled regions, give off larger "country scale" vibes. All-inclusive pockets that are only connected through dialogue and cameos, nothing physical or tangible.

I may have come away from my original point...
As I said, articulation is difficult.

(2/?)

Knightky (he/him)Jul 23, 2025

@ishambard it would be really great if ever there was a game that you could explore all the different regions to some extent, with trainer teams changing depending on how many badges you had, or you had to make new teams and start fresh in each region when you started

Ishambard Jul 23, 2025

I often think about this.

But I feel the gameplay loop might lose its appeal if you are essentially resetting for each region. Obviously, the end game would be a final big league where you can bring all of your teams together. Mii-Topia did this approach, and whilst I enjoyed the game, it did get a bit long in the tooth. By the third time your level and party reset.

Perhaps having each region have its own gimmick league. Such as a league that is all double battles, or one that focuses on pre-evolved Pokemon... But it is whether or not a wider audience would enjoy such an approach or limitations.

Knightky (he/him)Jul 23, 2025

@ishambard having ones more focused on gimmicks would be cool.
I mean don’t get me wrong, in Gen 2 when you could go through all of Kanto in the post game eventually leading to Mt. Silver it was a huge thing.

Max Almonte Jul 21, 2025

@ishambard I personally think Pokémon peaked here, and what you describe is one of the main reasons, for example if you go to Saffron City and enter the fighting dojo they will tell you their master went to Johto to train, then you can get back to Johto and find him in a cave that apparently had no purpose before! That's brilliant. Other caves serve not only as a passage from point A to point B but have secrets if you explore other floors and stuff, that's just good world building.

Christiaan Kras Jul 21, 2025

@ishambard Man I remember how cool it was when playing Gold/Silver that you eventually was able to go to the original region AND fight all the gym leaders there as well.

Pokémon peaked for me with those games. I don't recall playing any of the GBA or DS games. Got back into it with the 3DS. X/Y was very cool and I liked ORAS as well. But Sun/Moon I found horrible. After finishing the elite four (or was it called different?) I stopped playing that. Couldn't finish Sword. Didn't try the next ones

Ishambard Jul 21, 2025

I haven't reached the end game in a Pokemon game since X/Y.

Most of it is lack of motivation and being easily distracted by new games.

Perhaps now that I am more focused on finishing things, I will be more inclined to do so.

Pokemon has always been an odd one for me. I have always viewed it as 2 steps forward, one step back since Gold/Silver.

Events based on time and weekdays, and even the functioning day/night system, were broadly scrapped for Ruby and Sapphire.
The day night system was brought back going into Diamond and Pearl.

The focus on gimmicks per generation is also an issue.
Mega evolutions? Cool, have we done those properly since X/Y? Z moves? Hey. How about Gigantamaxing? No, we're into something new now.

Christiaan Kras Jul 21, 2025

@ishambard For me the whole switch from rivals to "hey, let's all be friends here" rubs me the wrong way lol. I mean, it's not a bad thing perse but it's kids TV quality bad. Don't like it at all.

But I guess it's an age thing as well. I think I was 10 years old or so when Pokémon Blue was released. Playing Sword as someone halfway his thirties, yeah, I think that makes a difference :-).

Ishambard Jul 21, 2025

I often have this conversation with people our age, who complain that Pokemon games are too easy these days or the story is rubbish.

The thing is, we're not the target demographic and haven't been for a long time.

I agree that having a "rival" is not necessarily a bad thing. I think it is a relatable childhood experience, even a friendly rivalry would work fine, where you would frame it as encouraging each other to get better.

Max Almonte Jul 21, 2025

@ishambard @Htbaa I only played up to the third generation as a kid, but since getting my New 3DS XL around 2020 I've been playing the other ones, IMO they're all bad in different ways. The main problem with Pokémon is that they only focus on "innovating" by tweaking the battle system, that include the "gimmicks", I don't know about y'all but when I play JRPGs I don't obsess over the battle system, au contraire, too much emphasis on battling gets old rather quickly.

Ishambard Jul 21, 2025

@maxalmonte14 @Htbaa

I wouldn't have an issue with adding new innovations if they kept them.

Double battles have become a staple, and that's fine.
But we have had inverse battles, rotation battles, etc etc.

It feels like we keep getting new toys and told later, "Actually, we're bored of this now, so have a new toy" before we have had a proper chance to explore the potential of the new toys.

Mega evolutions will always be my favourite kick in the teeth. "Hey. Let's have a temporary new evolution for Pokemon to spice up battles a little bit"
"Cool, this will make unviable pokemon more useful, right?"
"We're giving Charizard two different ones 😏"

Undead Zeratul Jul 21, 2025

@ishambard and they can't even give us the full Pokédex anymore, let alone a consistent world to explore.

Could you imagine a fully fleshed out world on one platform to be able to go out and explore? Going from region to region like how we have local vs regional vs state vs national competitions?

I would absolutely play an honest pokéMMO

Ishambard Jul 21, 2025

@Undead_Zeratul

I love the concept of a Pokemon MMO, I would be worried about balance as you progress up the tiers. Local, regional, etc.

I suppose one approach would be level locking or some kind of limiting factor, which you can frame like the cups on Pokemon stadium. So, like, only unevolved pokemon below a certain level range.

Undead Zeratul Jul 21, 2025

@ishambard that or each region has their own equivalent badges that each person would start from, and would act mostly for flavor. Beating all gyms in your starting area allows you entry into the national level where you compete across regions, akin to the actual Elite 4. Hell, maybe the Elite 4 IS the national gym at the endgame of it all. Beating them grants access to other regions to catch other pokemon? Maybe it's more like the traded Pokémon mechanic where catching Pokémon from another region won't obey you until you gain their regional badge since that's what they come to know and understand. That would give reason for players to explore and defeat other gyms, although there would need to be a way to prevent steamrolling gyms with your level 75 Typhlosion

YourWishes Jul 22, 2025

@ishambard Dunno how to describe it either but there was "stuff that happened" during the game. Modern Pokemon feels a bit like, rock up at a town, read a cutscene, then fight the gym.

Gen2 had the slowpoke tails, the lighthouse and the medicine, the kimono girls, lake of rage, the underground, and that's just what I can think off the top of my head.

Gen4 had this a bit too and I think it did help build the world in that gen too.

YourWishes Jul 22, 2025

@ishambard In addition there was like stuff you could miss, or at least felt like there was always more to see. All the unknown ruins stuff, the Ilex Forest, the Whirlpool Islands, and then all the stuff over in Kanto. if you had played Gen1 it was basically like "oh the cool secrets from Gen1 may still be there, or maybe different?" like the Power plant, the seafoam islands, and, of course, the mewtwo cave housing Red as a final battle was like icing on the cake