stux⚡Jul 5

Personally I always had issues with the concept of a "country" and "borders"

Like who are you to tell me where I can and cannot go on this planet..

Everyone should be free to travel where ever they want on this planet

Just because a huuman claimed land centuries ago decides how we live, it's pretty messed up if you ask me

Show threadG 🇮🇹Jul 5
@stux with everyone free to go anywhere on this planet there would be total anarchy. If you have issues with the concept of country or border you would have issues also with the law that regulate the society enclosed inside those borders.
Show threadPeter BrettJul 5

@ranx “Everyone free to go anywhere on the planet” worked without issues for literally thousands of years. Why would it be different now?

Administrative boundaries and controlled borders are two different things. You can have one without the other.

@stux #PostNationalism

Show threadG 🇮🇹
@krans @stux because for thousands of years there was no social welfare
Jul 5 at 12:57pmMastodon for Android
Show threadstux⚡Jul 5

@ranx @krans But wasn't there even more anarachy?

Nowadays we "keep each other in check" with modern media to record etc

Show threadG 🇮🇹Jul 5
@stux @krans it depends on the "country". Here the rule of law is millenary https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_law
Roman law - Wikipedia

Show threadHänzi PōtterJul 5
@ranx @stux @krans@me.uk >> “Everyone free to go anywhere on the planet” worked without issues for literally thousands of years. << no issues except groups of people (say Persians) would invade the land of neighbouring "place" (say Egypt), kill or enslave local population, take its resources & move on to expand their "area of control". I think the "modern" idea of counties happened BECAUSE everyone was free to move anywhere [usually in large groups, with weapons] and settle wherever they like! 🤷‍♂️
Show threadSämiⒶ🇵🇸Jul 5
@ranx @krans @stux So we should invest in building social welfare infrastructure in countries outside our "fortress", possibly by taxing the rich more, and then we can abolish borders?
I'm in!
Show threadG 🇮🇹Jul 5
@leomas @krans @stux abolishing borders sounds like when JL Picard said they didn't use money anymore in "First Contact", it's sci-fi. Borders can change but still, they will be there for quite some more time. I agree on tax the rich more though.
Show threadSämiⒶ🇵🇸Jul 5
@ranx @krans I'm not someone who thinks it's feasible today (I don't think I've seen someone argue that either, honestly), I believe that should be what humanity as a whole should strive for.
I think we fall into the trap of thinking, that because it's a long-term goal, we can't start real change into the direction, where it doesn't matter where you come from.
Thank you for coming to my TED talk.
Show threadThe Great Llama Jul 5
@ranx @leomas @krans @stux
Borders exist because propaganda has convinced people that they exist to support their governments, rather than the opposite. JFK's "ask not what your country..." nonsense was exactly backward. With open borders, the US would be watching its population and tax revenue plummet right now.
Show threadG 🇮🇹Jul 5
@TheGreatLlama @leomas @krans @stux ok, here's an example. Here in Italy universal healthcare is free (kinda) because our regions collect taxes to support it plus the government add extra cash every year to cover the budget. Following your reasoning, with no borders, there would be no government as we know it. So, with no national or regional government, free universal healthcare simply would cease to exist. Great achievement uh? ...anarchy, much fun!
Show threadThe Great Llama Jul 5
@ranx @leomas @krans @stux
I don't even know where to start with the leaps of logic you've just hand-waved past. Impossibly silly response. Have a good day, we're done.
Show threadG 🇮🇹Jul 6
@TheGreatLlama I'm sorry my comprehension of your english and your logic doesn't compare to your comprehension of mine or the italian language, byeee
Show threadThe Great Llama Jul 6

...aaaand now we're apparently going to pretend this is a language barrier issue, not a fundamental misunderstanding about the nature of borders. As if there is no way to have services or any sort of structure without keeping some people in and keeping other people out.

Quick thought... How come all of these "illegal" immigrants getting picked up in the US keep getting picked up at their jobs and found via tax information? Seems like people tend to work where they choose to live, doesn't it?

Show threadSämiⒶ🇵🇸Jul 5
@ranx @TheGreatLlama @krans @stux Seriously, do you have no reading comprehension, or did you not read what I said?
We have to LONG-TERM build up the necessary system in other countries.
When people, no matter where they are from, have a decent standard of living and are safe in other regions, why would we need borders?
Show threadPasswordsarehard4Jul 5
@leomas @ranx @krans @stux why would they pay you? They can just leave. After tax season they can just come back.
Show threadSämiⒶ🇵🇸Jul 5
@passwordsarehard4 I'm not argueing against residence, in fact, I believe everyone should have a permanent residence, not more than one though, so no vacation homes for example.
And the rich should pay high taxes everywhere.
Show threadWalrus 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿Jul 5

@ranx @krans @stux

There was, though. It was called people helping each other.

Show threadMagnus AhltorpJul 5
@ranx @krans @stux Implicit here is that people who happen to be on one side of the border people are more worthy of said social welfare. That is a very problematic notion.
Show threadG 🇮🇹Jul 5
@ahltorp @krans @stux Ethically, everyone is worthy of social welfare. That doesn't mean that everyone of those who pay for such welfare are happy to share it with newcomers or to experience their welfare to degrade because of these newcomers.
Show threadJairaj DevadigaJul 5
@ranx @krans @stux The far right makes this exact same argument.
Show threadG 🇮🇹Jul 5
@jairajdevadiga @krans @stux so what? I'm also pro abortion, euthanasia, divorce, LGBTQIA+ rights and an atheist. Do you have something to say about that too?
Show threadJairaj DevadigaJul 5

@ranx @krans @stux I am also all of those things. But you are wrong on this one issue.

The far right uses the welfare state as a justification for mass deportations. They say that open borders are fiscally unsustainable, just as you do.

I would hope that you wouldn't give the fascists ammunition to use against migrants. Especially when it is not even true. Migrants on average pay more in taxes than they receive in welfare.

Show threadChase Oliver For PresidentJul 6
@stux @krans @ranx then address that concern rather than demonizing people who want a different life than they were born into.
Show threadG 🇮🇹Jul 6
@chaseforliberty hmm... you want to run for president but I think you didn't figure out how to properly respond to a thread on here, yet.