Mastodawn

Introducing Web Numbers

Domains? Where we’re going, we don’t need domains!

Get ready for an exciting new (old?) way to address (small) web sites in 2026.

https://ar.al/2025/06/25/web-numbers/

💕

(Thanks to @letsencrypt.)

#WebNumbers #SmallWeb #domainNames #IPAddresses #TLS #HTTPS #LetsEncrypt #web #decentralisation #SmallTech

Web Numbers

Domains? Where we’re going, we don’t need domains! Until the end of this year, the only way to have a secure web site is to have it accessible via a domain name. That, however, is changing. And the design of the Small Web will be changing along with it. IP addresses are about to make a comeback on the web in a big (ok, small) way, thanks to upcoming support for security certificates for IP addresses by Let’s Encrypt.

Aral Balkan

wandi Jun 25, 2025

@aral @letsencrypt
ICAAN *ICANN

Aral Balkan Jun 25, 2025

@telmi @letsencrypt Would you believe I make that mistake Every. Single. Time? :)

(Thanks, now fixed!) :)

giuseppe Jun 25, 2025

@aral Love the idea! If they allow us to take ip numbers with us, I would even drop my domain names. The trade off is that if I change host my Web Number changes right?

Aral Balkan Jun 25, 2025

@geep Yeah but there will be forwarding in Small Web sites (at least) so as long as you keep both servers up for a transitionary period everyone’s address books should have time to update. (I don’t see the address books being static things; the forwarding will be part of the Small Web protocol.)

blobfoxheadphones

@aral @letsencrypt queue internet phonebook 2.0

blobfoxcomputer

Bill Zaumen Jun 25, 2025

@aral @letsencrypt One thing to keep in mind: the DNS system was set up in part because IP addresses are changed every so often, partlyi due to hierarchical routing, and a domain name was intended to provide a stable name for a host. If that host physically moved or if the network topology changed, that host's IP address might have to change as well.

Bill Zaumen Jun 25, 2025

@aral @letsencrypt To add a bit more, in 1980s, I could literally walk down the hall and talk to someone in the NIC (Network Information Center, which managed domain names among other things). At one point, I had a workstation with a whopping 8 MBytes of RAM (a lot for the time). Given the hardware constraints, keeping the size of routing tables in individual routers small was necessary to create a functional network. The NIC was publicly funded.

Pierric Jun 26, 2025

@aral @letsencrypt isn't the name yarn potentially confusing due to its namesake in the package management space?

Nice stuff otherwise!

Dimly Lit Corners Jun 26, 2025

@aral @letsencrypt Now, if only IP addresses weren't assigned in a geolocatable way… ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

but it's a start…

next how about IPv6?

After that, who knows? The normalising of base32 #OnionServices and #I2P addresses? :D

CyberFrog Jun 26, 2025

@DLC @aral to be fair everything you read about IP addresses explicitly and very clearly says they're not actually tied to any geolocation, the standards organizations practically scream this from the heavens, private companies tend to just distribute them geographically anyway

but like not all of them do that, it's why GeoIP databases are constantly wrong, IPs move locations and hands constantly around the globe

Phil Höfer Jun 26, 2025

@aral I like the idea but seeing as how there are already actual people without access to full ipv4 connectivity, I can only think of it as a cool alternate history that was only practical for some time.

One thing I do like about phone numbers is that I can take them with me every time I change providers. I'd like that for IPs.

MoveFastAndFixThings Jun 26, 2025

Phil Jun 26, 2025

@aral @letsencrypt This is fucking brilliant and long overdue! Amazing work.

Aral Balkan Jun 26, 2025

@paw @letsencrypt 💕

Tykayn Jun 26, 2025

@aral
good news

funny thing about some famous websites in china, they used many websites numbers as domains. i dunno if it is still the case.

also, public ip are shared with families, so when we run kitty on several computer sharing the same internet box, how does it work ?

Aral Balkan Jun 26, 2025

@tykayn @letsencrypt Latter sounds like a job for IPv6. But I’m sure we’ll tackle that when we get to it. My focus is on getting the core ready for use at the moment ;)

Richard Jun 27, 2025

@aral I like the idea of simply saving IP addresses to my address book, though changing number seems like a hassle (about as bad as changing phone numbers, only I expect it to happen more often).

And I guess you still need a domain name to run Catalyst for multiple users? (Needing to get it on the PSL already seems like a problem anyway)

Aral Balkan Jun 27, 2025

@rigrig You don’t need it on the PSL if you’re setting up servers at IP addresses, only if you’re doing so at domains.

I would expect an IP address to change only if you’re moving hosts in the VPS deployment scenario. And Kitten already supports forwarding. Yarn will also have server migration as a first-class citizen. So that should help mitigate that issue :)

Richard Jun 28, 2025

@aral So you need an address per user? Because I don’t see how else you can have different users without cookie security issues. (well, different ports, but that’s just me having a bad idea out loud ;-)

And yeah, I was thinking of having to notify all your contacts when changing VPS providers, which won’t happen very often, so not really a huge problem.

mikael Jul 1, 2025

I like the idea, but how do we keep an IP going from provider to provider? IPs are even more fragile than domains and changing that fact seems near impossible.

Instead, couldn’t a trusted nonprofit (say @eff or ISRG) buy a gTLD from ICANN, become a registrar and rent out domains at (very close to) self-cost with no insane price hikes? Picture what ISRG did with @letsencrypt, but for domains.

Running costs for this would currently be a fixed fee of US$6,250 per calendar quarter and a transaction fee of US$0.25[1]. These costs could be split on all registrants.

Some would probably say that .org is the answer, but the PIR drama in 2020[2] shows how fragile this system is. We *need* a TLD that doesn’t need to be saved by the @eff from hostile takeovers.

Imagine: more registrants would mean lower prices. That’s far from how gTLDs function now. A sudden spike in interest could introduce a sudden price increase.

[1] https://newgtlds.icann.org/en/applicants/global-support/faqs/faqs-en

[2] https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2020/12/how-we-saved-org-2020-review

This was an idea of mine from 2023: https://merveilles.town/@mikael/110856360216330528

Frequently Asked Questions | ICANN New gTLDs

Aral Balkan Jul 1, 2025

@mikael @eff @letsencrypt Migration can be built at the app layer (Kitten already supports it natively for all apps created with it). Both servers would have to be online for a period of time to allow people’s address books time to update.

I do like your non-commercial TLD idea too. Would love to see that and it would be a nice complementary tool. Could easily be done as an EU-funded project if the political will was there.

(Basically, that was/is what I was hacking at the second-level domain level using the Public Suffix List until this latest Let’s Encrypt development.)

mikael Jul 1, 2025

Cool that you’ve thought about handling that at the app layer.

Yeah, it seems we today take for given that domains are either owned by or tied to nation states or corporations. Other forms of governance are possible!

@eff @letsencrypt